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[zardoz859]

I just purchased MC13 after using it through the trial period.  It is a fine application and I think it will probably do everything I would like it to do if I could only figure out how.  A message board and the wiki is no substitute for a well written and maintained manual.  I literally spent hours searching both for what it means by "play as radio" and maybe the answer is out there but if I couldn't find it in the time I searched then something is definitely wrong.  I have no issue with the support forum as the source for most answers but a simple function like what I was searching for should be easily found in a real manual; PDF would do nicely, a plain old txt file would suffice.

Media Center 13 gets an A+

Documentation gets a D-

By the way I still don't know the answer to my question about "play as radio"...

[JimH]

Play as radio uses the current track you're playing as a "seed" for building a playlist of similar music.  It will learn from your skips.

Sometimes trying it is the best way to learn.

[JimH]

The search for "Play radio" worked when I tried it:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=49717.0

[Pjotr]

Sometimes trying it is the best way to learn.

Yeh, and sometimes trying is a sure way to die and you die only once! (Although this will not happen easily using MC )

Trial and error is usually a waste of time with grown-up people and with an unsure outcome.

I am fully with Zardoz. MC has so many features that digging your way through the wiki and the forum is not easy, very time consuming and it never gives you an overview of the whole thing. MC is an excellent job done and it is worth a good structured manual.

A good structured manual with a good “Getting started” in PDF form plus a reference manual is also a big wish for me. That is the only way to get a good grip on MC and get the most out of it.

Flipping between MC and the wiki is not an efficient way to learn MC, maybe if you have a dual monitor set-up?

[Johnny B]

I am fully with Zardoz. MC has so many features that digging your way through the wiki and the forum is not easy, very time consuming and it never gives you an overview of the whole thing. MC is an excellent job done and it is worth a good structured manual.

A good structured manual with a good “Getting started” in PDF form plus a reference manual is also a big wish for me. That is the only way to get a good grip on MC and get the most out of it.

+1

[marko]

The problem here, is that someone could begin compiling a manual today, and by the time it was finished, it would already be out of date.

I recently posted a brief explanation of all the various options available in the "Customise View" options. That post took a while to compile, is quite brief, and probably leads on to yet more questions. That is one, minute area of the depth of MC, the thought of trying to put something together for the entire app is mind boggling, and would probably require a whole department of its own at JRiver HQ with several full time members of staff.

While I appreciate that posting on an internet forum is not something that comes naturally to everyone, I would say that, if searching is still drawing a blank after ten or fifteen minutes, ask your question here on the forum, where you can normally expect some kind of response within an hour or so of posting.

-marko.

[eba]

A good manual would be nice, but still isn't going to be much good to the average person trying MC for the first time who can't be bothered to search through anything that looks like a lot of documentation.

I always feel that what MC could really do with is a really nice tutorial system.

Scenario: New user goes into Options.  What do they see?
'Enable shell integration'
'Jump on play'
'Online Metadata'
And a whole host of other scary looking things with no explanation as to what they actually do.  Average non computer-savvy new user is going to be completely baffled, and probably decide MC is too complicated for them.

How about showing a nice tool tip to say what these things actually mean?

What would be really nice would be a slider in the corner where you could tell MC whether you were anything from beginner-intermediate-advanced-Alex B, so that it would only show appropriate stuff.

Ok, so maybe I'm going a bit far there, so for something more conventional, how about a 'Start-up tips' system?  There are so many hidden features of MC that are really useful but there's no way anyone would ever find them unless by freak accident or by avidly following the forum.

I've introduced a few people to MJ and MC, and for the most part I know that there is no way on earth that they'd actually put the effort in to go read a wiki, much less ask questions on a forum.  At best, they just make do.  Often, they just go back to iTunes or Media Player.

[raldo]

The problem here, is that someone could begin compiling a manual today, and by the time it was finished, it would already be out of date.

Yes, and in addition to that, developers don't usually volunteer to writing documentation either...

Why not aim towards structuring the Wiki more towards a proper manual? The client side of the Wiki is in HTML, so I'm sure some tool could have been used to generate HTML help for inclusion in the JRiver menu system..

I think the tutorial you wrote on view schemes was really good, has that been included in the wiki?

[Daydream]

I'm for further enhancing the wiki too. Even if you're not a total newbie, in my opinion there's a big gap between understanding the basics and working with the true power of MC. There are no mechanics about how to learn more past the basics unless one commits a serious amount of time, which may not be everybody's choice.

There are many elements at this point that are lost, some very small but with a definitive impact. Sometimes I stumble upon a screenshot from somebody's collection and besides the main point that was meant to make I notice something else - "heh, how did he do it, making it look like that!?" that I discovered it was a simple thing, but it was never described as having that kind of effect. For a program like MC where the whole is much bigger than the sum of its parts, there should be more incentive to think creatively.

What would be really nice would be a slider in the corner where you could tell MC whether you were anything from beginner-intermediate-advanced-Alex B

There were some rumors he was going to be sanctified  

[JimH]

I'm for further enhancing the wiki too.

Log in and do it.  Anyone can edit it.

[zardoz859]

Thanks to all those in the forum for sharing their experience and knowledge of the product.  I have no real objection to the wiki for most things but a manual should be a downloadable document.  And that manual needs to be compiled and maintained by the company, not the user community.  There is no slam intended here just making the point that the entity that created a thing should know how it works and should share that information with their customers.  It may be an annoyance for them, but once created it would only require incremental updates with new releases.  Most of that info would be in the release notes anyway.  The wiki would make a good start on a manual comprising more than 80% of it.  It may be hard to believe but I use my laptop and this application frequently without an internet connection.  In fact, that is my intended use and why I tried it for 28 days and just purchased it today.  Why should I have to go find a wifi connection just to look up info on some feature that I'm having trouble with.  It's just my opinion of course, but I don't think it is too much to ask that the developer of a great product like this should properly document it.  Then again, I bought it as is even with the frustration this causes.  Like I said, an A+ on the product but the documentation just falls way short with a D-.

I would also like to thank those who replied to my referenced question about the "play as radio" function.  I haven't had a chance to dig into it but I certainly will at my earliest convenience.

[Daydream]

My opinion is that the wish for a manual is an outdated reflex. "Here, 400 pages of the latest MC novel! Once you read it you can sing by ear regarding the subject!" I can't see that happening. First, it'll have so many links between sections and subjects that it'll be a wiki. One will need to browse, to jump; turning page after page won't work. Second, I'm not sure what exactly one would want to learn. If JRiver comes out and explains in long paragraphs what every little click does, it's still not gonna be enough. I'd bet (assuming mode here, guessing a bit) that what one would want to know is how 2 or more things work together, the synergy, the spiraling options, the creative ideas that can go in many directions (and that are often talked about over here). That you can't learn reading a manual. Just as you can't learn to swim reading a manual.

About the wiki. I believe it can be improved regarding "how" explanations are presented. I can't speak regarding the whole wiki but certain sections could use real examples, screenshots if necessary. I'm not the expert, far from it, but the entire Expression page seems wrong to me (remember, I'm not a programmer, feel free to show me to what degree I am wrong, if I am). I'd say the syntax descriptions are actually your examples and the real examples are missing. A real example would be every function applied to a real value, with a clear return for that case.

So every average John Doe that has just barely touched the function knows how it works, has a limited example with a clear, tangible value as a result, and can expand the logic from there. It's very possible that it's not going to have to read long explanations, because it can see the complete example. That is missing now. The syntax is there but not a tangible result to check the logic against, to see if the one learning understood the function or not.

And then Marko starts posting expressions and we all go home... to learn some more

Just the way I see it on a couple of subjects...

[zardoz859]

If the wiki is so great then compile it into a manual and distribute it.  First I would suggest it be proofed and updated with an explanation of every command, setting, option and error messages a user could possibly encounter.  Yes, I mean every one.  Complete and correct information would be appreciated as well.  The wiki certainly falls far short. 

Also, while I appreciate everyones experiences and insight, the user community has no business writing the manual or pseudo-manual (wiki such as it is).  Those who develop the application need to document it and maintain that documentation.  They are the only ones who really know how the thing is supposed to work.  I know developers want to program and not be annoyed bu documenting their work.  The guesswork of the users trial and error experiences compiled into a wiki just doesn't cut it.  I'm sorry, but if you are going to sell it then document it.  I would not recommend this product any of my non-techie friends explicitly because it is so poorly documented and I'm not taking on the role as tech support on this one.

A real manual is just my suggestion.  It wouldn't cost that much to create or maintain it and maintain it.  It's a black mark against the product, like it or not.  There are a lot of media center choices out there and get this, customer service is important.  Believe it or not...

[Alexx]

There are a lot of media center choices out there and get this, customer service is important.  Believe it or not...

There are not that many media center choices out there, and if you factor out the crap, that leaves MC.  If Winamp offers a user manual, then I must have missed it.  The last MMonkey update was Novenber 5th 2008 and it's not because they are working on their documentation. The last MC update was May 27th 2009 and it's not because they are working on their documentation.  Jetaudio offers a manual, but it was written back when Windows was version 3.1.  How about that thick and comprehensive Foobar manual?  Wow!  Now there's a player that needs documentation.

I've never had a question, or experienced a problem that couldn't be solved through the WIKI, or by simply posting a question on the forums.  You just can't be shy about it.

I myself, would prefer that JRiver concentrate on honing their product, not documenting it.

[zardoz859]

Like I said, I bought it so I am like with the product.

Depending on what you want to do, I can think of five Media Center products out there.  In fact I own one of the others which is better suited for DVR functionality.  It has a manual though it too is pretty sketchy too but at least I can download it.

I'm clearly not shy or I wouldn't be complaining about this.  All the rationalization in the world doesn't change the fact that the documentation is inadequate.  For anyone planning a purchase, I would recommend the "try before you buy" option and to decide if you can live with the wiki.  I did, can , and will but I clearly don't like it.  I'll suffer through the muddled mess that is the wiki and ask my questions here as you suggest.  It doesn't change the fact that if you sell it you should document it.  Even my car radio came with a manual to tell me how to use all the features and I didn't have to ask any other Jeep owner a thing.  Imagine that...

It is what it is and it ain't good no matter how much you defend it... 

[JimH]

It doesn't change the fact that if you sell it you should document it.  

It is heavily documented -- just not on paper.  

Sorry you're not happy without a paper copy, but there won't ever be one.  Paper manuals are obsolete for complex software.  

Everything is moving to digital -- music, video, pictures, telephone, billing, payments, and so on.  Embrace it.  It's the future.

And, if you think the wiki is a "muddled mess", please consider helping out.  Anyone can edit it.

[Mr ChriZ]

I work for a software company with some fairly complex medical software.  Our users are completely non technical natured which is a challenge.
We create what we call "How Do I?" documents. Each one focus's solely on accomplishing a single task.  
These can also help show weaknesses in the software where tasks are difficult to accomplish.

Maybe Zardoz you can suggest some topics that need this kind of "How Do I?" type document.  It can be difficult for developers to see where more documentation is needed as they/we are on a different plane of thinking to the user.  Documenting all of MC completely would I suspect cost a fortune in man hours, fine if you have infintisimal MS/Apple type resources but more difficult for the smaller operation.

[thenoob1]

The only thing I would recommend is to make an offline version of the wiki documentation. So people can download it and use it for example on their notebook (holiday, etc. with no internet connection).

[zardoz859]

If everything were in there I wouldn't have made the very first post.  I don't want anything on paper, PDF works just fine.  It's a valid issue and I urge you to rethink the "let the users figure it out and document it" stance.  Why wouldn't you want exceptional documentation for an exceptional product.  If you think all is well here, you're just not listening.  Thanks for the great product and I hope you will better document it in the future.

[zardoz859]

Thanks Mr ChriZ for your suggestions and in response to that, I offer the following suggestions.

I completely do not understand the "Areas" feature and after searching through hours of posts never did find the "Play as Radio" feature documented though I have received a couple messages concerning that since my first post.  Another user mentioned that he used MC as a DJ tool but I don't see how that would work unless it has something to do with the illusive "Areas" feature.  I want to make the most of this app and hate the endless searching through posts that may or may not be correct.  Anyway, these are a few of the vague areas I think need documentation.  Basically, is there is an option or setting in the interface, it needs documentation.  Once again, the first thing I searched for ("Play as radio") was no where to be found so it is clear that omissions exist. 

At this point I assume the disagreement over the documentation issue will apparently remain just that.  There's no point in trying to convince me that the wiki is the best thing since sliced bread and I can see the defensive rationalization of those supporting the wiki is unlikely to change.  It's useful to an extent but just not good enough and you simply can't download a portable document accessible without a live internet connection.  These are obvious shortcomings.  If you can't see that then respectfully we just aren't going to move the ball off the 50 yard line and nothing will improve.  That's OK, I'll use the functions I have figured out and use my other software for the rest.  I'm pretty sure MC could do it all but like trying to find your missing car keys, eventually you just go buy a new set.  In the end it's JRiver's decision as how to best support and promote their product and I'm sure they will make what they feel is the best business decision.
 

[Alex B]

MC12 was the last version that actually had an internal help/manual included (a chm help file)

I can understand why it wasn't an optimal and why the online manual in the wiki replaced it. The help file was always out-of-date because the program evolved constantly and JRiver didn't have the resources to create a new version of the manual weekly or so.

I am not saying that the wiki pages are up-to-date as they are now, but they can be easily edited and bettered in small chunks so they have a better chance to become the definitive source of information.

I uploaded the MC12 help file here: http://rs260.rapidshare.com/files/240837099/Media_Center_Help.chm (1.16 MB)

It might be a good read even though a lot has changed since it was last edited.

EDIT

Perhaps the JRiver guys could create a downloadable version of the JRiver Wiki by following the instructions here: http://users.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html.

They could run a script weekly so that it would always be a recent version.

[Pjotr]

If the wiki is so great then compile it into a manual and distribute it.  First I would suggest it be proofed and updated with an explanation of every command, setting, option and error messages a user could possibly encounter.  Yes, I mean every one.  Complete and correct information would be appreciated as well.

.........................

Indeed, that is the way it should be and that is not old-fashioned. Up to MC12 there was a off-line help file and I learned most out of that, not the Wiki. As of MC13 that help file is gone and I am now pointed to the Wiki.

I have MC installed on a Netbook also and on journeys I'm not hooked to the internet most of the time. I keep the help file of MC12 at hand, just in case of.

And for those who blame a good written manual they have probably only seen crap ones. I agree writing a good and maintainable manual is an art by itself. But that is no excuse not to do it. I prefer spending most of the time using MC and not spending lots of time searching through bits and pieces looking for the handles.

Sorry you're not happy without a paper copy, but there won't every be one.  Paper manuals are obsolete for complex software.

That is just a view and to me looks as an excuse not to take the effort to provide the details of the software in a structured logical way. The Wiki and the forum is just a good attempt to it but not the real thing. At work I am using way more complex software than MC. It would be complete unworkable/unproductive without decent written reference manuals. I would only touch the surface and never get the real power out of it, just because of its complexity which is nevertheless logical.

Everything is moving to digital -- music, video, pictures, telephone, billing, payments, and so on.  Embrace it.  It's the future.

That doesn’t mean there is no necessity anymore for a decent manual how to handle it properly en get most out of it. Only the designers have the complete knowledge of their intentions with their product and how it is intended to be used. It is their responsibility to share that knowledge with the users.

Was MC written without any manuals, searching forums and Wiki’s, of the used compiler(s)? And only by trial and error, also digging through numerous forums, finding your way through the innards of Windows? Forums and Wiki’s are great for supplementing support but doesn’t replace good guiding manuals.

MC is an excellent piece of software and stands out the rest, no doubt about that. It deserves a good manual. I have recommended it to many others but most discarded it because it took too much time to get rid of it. Are those people stupid or lazy? Certainly not! They just want a good piece of media software to use it, not a jig saw puzzle to solve. Keep in mind that not all users have a background in “logic”. Most of them have in fact not but are nevertheless willing to learn provided properly guided in a way they can find their own way. At the moment that is simply not the case with the Wiki and the forum despite all the great efforts and help of the contributors, which of course is highly appreciated.

[Alex B]

Apparently the MediaWiki software has some useful extensions:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Collection

-- can create a collection of pages and export it in pdf format. It can be used by anyone. JimH could maintain a copy that contains the full wiki (and provide a link) and others could create personalized collections. It is easy to use. An example can be found here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:Collection

There's also this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Pdf_Book
-- the name looks promising, but I don't know how it works (yet?).

[Gl3nn]

Thanks to all those in the forum for sharing their experience and knowledge of the product.  I have no real objection to the wiki for most things but a manual should be a downloadable document.  And that manual needs to be compiled and maintained by the company, not the user community.  There is no slam intended here just making the point that the entity that created a thing should know how it works and should share that information with their customers.  It may be an annoyance for them, but once created it would only require incremental updates with new releases.  Most of that info would be in the release notes anyway.  The wiki would make a good start on a manual comprising more than 80% of it.  It may be hard to believe but I use my laptop and this application frequently without an internet connection.  In fact, that is my intended use and why I tried it for 28 days and just purchased it today.  Why should I have to go find a wifi connection just to look up info on some feature that I'm having trouble with.  It's just my opinion of course, but I don't think it is too much to ask that the developer of a great product like this should properly document it.  Then again, I bought it as is even with the frustration this causes.  Like I said, an A+ on the product but the documentation just falls way short with a D-.

I agree with you 100%, thanks for stating the case.  Based on the responses, unfortunately, it's unlikely that anything will change...