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[Bill S]

After going from v16.0.86 to 16.0.111, .dts files that were ripped from DTS CDs no longer play properly.

Note: I saw a similar thread ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64700.0 ). However this is different, for me .dts and .ac3 extracts from DVDs play fine in both versions, it is only .dts from DTS CDs that no longer  play in 16.0.111.


PROBLEM:
Playing .dts files ripped from DTS CDs results in static using J River Media Center 16.0.111.  The exact same files play fine in 16.0.86  (after going to 16.0.111 I went back to 16.0.86 to verify this).

STEPS:
1. Rip DTS CD (i.e., Paul McCartney's Band On The Run dts cd)
2. In MC, be sure the filetype is set to 'dts' for the file and that it has .dts extension (In MC 15 for me the filetype also had to be dts but the actual extension had to be .dtswav)
3. Play file

RESULT:
  v16.0.86     Surround music goodness
  v16.0.111   Static 

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

My Setup
  -- Internal ('in computer') decoding (I'm not using S/PDIF or HDMI from this computer)

  -- Output Mode: Direct Sound

  -- Output Mode Settings...
       Device: Primary SOund Driver
       Channels: Default Channels (recommended)

  -- DSP & Output Format:
       Output Format: 
          Sample Rate: No resampling
          Channels: Source number of channels
          Bitdepth: 24-bit


For the .dts filetype I have following settings:

  -- Playback Method: JRiver audio engine (using DirectShow filter)

  -- Source Filter: AC3File
      If I click the Configure button, the resulting window that pops up is different based on MC version:

          v16.086 - In the AC3File Properties popup, the File information tab contains:
                         File: (null)
                         Size : 44671580 (42 MB)
                         No parser set
                         Frames: 0
                         File position: 0 (0 B)
                         Time: 0:00:00.000

          v16.0.111 - In the AC3File Properties popup, the File information tab contents is blank/empty.


  -- Other Filters: ffdshow Audio Decoder; JRiver Bitrate Monitor filter 
        Configure Properties:
           Check for DTS in WAV is checked
 
           Codecs
              DTS - "decoder" set to libdts


Mediainfo reports the following for one of the .dts files from DTSCD (note that it is a .dts file but format is shown below as Wave; in dts extracted from DVD this format value shows as DTS):

General
Complete name                    : G:\mlb4\Surround\DTS CD\Paul McCartney\1973 - Band On The Run\1997 - DTS 71024-54403-2-3 - DTS CD - DTS CD\disc 1\02 - Jet.dts
Format                           : Wave
File size                        : 42.6 MiB
Duration                         : 4mn 13s
Overall bit rate                 : 1 411.2 Kbps

Audio
ID                               : 0
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
Format settings, Endianness      : Little
Muxing mode                      : LE / 14
Codec ID                         : 1
Codec ID/Hint                    : Microsoft
Duration                         : 4mn 13s
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 1 411.2 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 6 channels
Channel positions                : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
Bit depth                        : 24 bits
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Stream size                      : 42.6 MiB (100%)



I'll post logs for v16.086 and 16.0111 shortly,

THANKS!!

[Bill S]

Looks like the log files have too many characters for me to post here.  If they would be of use please let me know how best to get them to you.  There are two log files, one for when playing the file is fine (16.086) and one for when playing the file results in static (16.111).

Thanks for any help with this!

Bill

[glynor]

I'm skeptical, but this could be related to a bug fixed in build 112, where DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD files weren't being bitstreamed properly.  Matt has said this ONLY applies to bitstreaming those particular HD formats though, so probably not...

FYI:  Media Info is correct.  Those .dts files ARE wav files, they're just DTS encoded.  The static you're hearing is actually what those wav files sound like if you don't do the DTS decoding.  So, what is happening is that MC isn't using the AC3Filter/FFDSHOW combination you have set up, or something is broken in that setup.  It is almost certainly Red October related.  Just to check, do they work in 111 if you change the Playback Method to J River video engine (DirectShow)?  They might...

[Matt]

With a coming build, .DTS audio files will be decoded by Red October.

This means they will work like any other encoded audio file: a decoder will convert the data to PCM so that it can flow through the JRiver audio engine.

We really have no notion of bitstreaming in the audio engine.  It's possible some filter on your system that was being used in an old build would make that possible, but it's not officially supported.  It might be a good feature in the future, although you'll get better quality and flexibility using the JRiver audio engine instead of circumventing it with bitstreaming.

[Bill S]

I'm skeptical, but this could be related to a bug fixed in build 112, where DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD files weren't being bitstreamed properly.  Matt has said this ONLY applies to bitstreaming those particular HD formats though, so probably not...

FYI:  Media Info is correct.  Those .dts files ARE wav files, they're just DTS encoded.  The static you're hearing is actually what those wav files sound like if you don't do the DTS decoding.  So, what is happening is that MC isn't using the AC3Filter/FFDSHOW combination you have set up, or something is broken in that setup.  It is almost certainly Red October related.  Just to check, do they work in 111 if you change the Playback Method to J River video engine (DirectShow)?  They might...

Good idea... I just tried it (made the change, stopped/restarted, then tested) but still didn't work.  I think you're right that something about 111 doesn't like AC3Filter/FFDShow for dts wav files (but still ok with dts and ac3 files), especially since clicking Configure for that source filter (in the MC window) results in the different behavior.  Oh well, thanks for reading that long post of mine and the suggestion!

[Bill S]

With a coming build, .DTS audio files will be decoded by Red October.

This means they will work like any other encoded audio file: a decoder will convert the data to PCM so that it can flow through the JRiver audio engine.

We really have no notion of bitstreaming in the audio engine.  It's possible some filter on your system that was being used in an old build would make that possible, but it's not officially supported.  It might be a good feature in the future, although you'll get better quality and flexibility using the JRiver audio engine instead of circumventing it with bitstreaming.

Hi Matt

I'm not bitstreaming (at least that I know of! ), my Klipsch powered speakers are connected (analog) directly to the multichannel soundcard.  What's strange is that the exact same setup/file works in 86, but not in 111 - I've upgraded/downgraded several times today on the same computer to doublecheck this.   

That upcoming change sounds pretty good for us dts file folks.  Do you happen to know if, when that change is made, the Red October decoder can handle dts wav (dts file ripped from a DTS CD) as well as normal dts (dts file extracted from a DVD)?  If you don't know yet that's ok, I'll check again after the change (or can provide samples if you'd like).  With that upcoming change you mentioned, and since I can always go back to 86 if needed, there's probably no need to dig into this much for now.  Thanks for looking at this!

Bill

[Alex B]

Probably the Red October system is/was simply ignoring the set or merit based DirectShow filter configuration.

I wonder if it will still be possible to switch it off and use other filters.

In my opinion the Red October system should be active only with video files. The few audio file types that need DirectShow decoding are special cases and the advanced users who actually use them probably would want to configure the filters by hand. At the same time they might want to use the easy Red October system for video files.

[Daydream]

Check this:

This plays fine in MC (video engine & DirectShow filters - bitstreaming through LAV audio; I don't quite agree with Matt on the no-bitstreaming idea)

Code: [Select]

General
Complete name                    : J:\!Audiostation\ABBA\The Definitive Collection\18 - Chiquitita.dts
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
File size                        : 48.0 MiB
Duration                         : 4mn 45s
Overall bit rate                 : 1 411.2 Kbps

Audio
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
Duration                         : 4mn 45s
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 1 411.2 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 6 channels
Channel positions                : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
Bit depth                        : 24 bits
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Stream size                      : 48.0 MiB
This other one doesn't (notice it has the same Endianness & LE/14 muxing mode as in Bill's examples)

Code: [Select]

General
CompleteName                     : J:\!Audiostation\!DTS\Seal\Seal - Crazy.dts
Format                           : Wave
FileSize/String                  : 60.2 MiB
Duration/String                  : 5mn 57s
OverallBitRate/String            : 1 411.2 Kbps

Audio
ID/String                        : 0
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
Format_Settings_Endianness       : Little
MuxingMode                       : LE / 14
CodecID                          : 1
CodecID/Hint                     : Microsoft
Duration/String                  : 5mn 57s
BitRate_Mode/String              : Constant
BitRate/String                   : 1 411.2 Kbps
Channel(s)/String                : 6 channels
ChannelPositions                 : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
SamplingRate/String              : 44.1 KHz
BitDepth/String                  : 24 bits
Compression_Mode/String          : Lossy
StreamSize/String                : 60.2 MiB (100%)

If I run the unplayable file through DTS Parser 2.0 it comes out as

Code: [Select]

General
Complete name                    : J:\!Audiostation\!DTS\Seal\Seal - Crazy.dts.fixed.dts
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
File size                        : 52.7 MiB
Duration                         : 5mn 13s
Overall bit rate                 : 1 411.2 Kbps

Audio
Format                           : DTS
Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
Duration                         : 5mn 13s
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 1 411.2 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 6 channels
Channel positions                : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
Bit depth                        : 24 bits
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Stream size                      : 52.7 MiB (100%)
and now it plays in MC. So it's probably a header thing (although the filesize difference hints at more than that).

[Matt]

I should add that the answer for DTS in a .WAV file might be a little different.  These files are marked as uncompressed PCM meaning we'll play them like any other WAV file.

I think it's smarter to use .DTS so that we know the files are compressed.

A little more here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64700.msg433666#msg433666

[Bill S]

<snip>
If I run the unplayable file through DTS Parser 2.0 it comes out as

<snip>
and now it plays in MC. So it's probably a header thing (although the filesize difference hints at more than that).

Thanks for the tip about DTS Parser.  I just tried it and it worked!  But... I notice that in addition to the filesize difference, the resulting duration is also different.  For example, here is the mediainfo size/duration for a track prior to DTS Parser:

    File size    : 45.9 MiB
    Duration   : 4mn 32s  (272 seconds)


After running it through DTS Parser:

   File size     : 40.1 MiB
   Duration    : 3mn 58s (238 seconds)


I thought that DTS Parser might have sped it up, perhaps due to some issue with 44.1kHz versus 48kHz, but if that was the case then I think (if my rusty math is right) that the resulting track's duration would have been around 250 seconds instead of 238.  I guess I'll have to dig around and figure this out before using DTS Parser on these files.

---------
EDIT: I just noticed that even though mediainfo and j river media center both show the fixed song as 3:58, it actually keeps playing to around 4:32  - the play 'progress' bar at the top reaches the end at 3:58 but the song keeps playing, so the elapsed number value on the left at the top actually becomes larger than the total track time.  I'm guessing that there is a bug in DTSParser that results in the wrong track time for mediainfo/jriver media center.  Other than that, DTSParser seems to work fine for these files ripped from dts cds.

[JimH]

Please confirm that you have tried build 116.

[Bill S]

Thanks for the reply...  Yes, I tested with build 116.  I also tried the following:

File Types > DTS
  "JRiver audio engine (using DirectShow filter)"  (<-- my normal setting)
  "JRiver video engine (using DirectShow filter)"

and also

Video > General Video Settings
  "DirectShow selection method" Red October Standard (recommended)
   Advanced > "Windows Merit Based (less stable)"


No combination of the above seemed to work (and media center crashed when using windows merit based).

I realize this isn't the biggest issue but it would be nice to get a way (either change in code or workaround involving settings/filters or even other tool) to play back these surround files like I could before.  The dts parser tool seems to work but it has the issues described earlier.

Thanks again

[JimH]

Take a look at desertdome's post over on AVSForum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20606659#post20606659

He's mojave here.  I think he's posted something similar here.

[Matt]

.dts files created by ripping DTS CDs (and changing file extension to .dts) result in static when decoded/played on the computer.  .dts files extracted from DVDs play fine.

In version 16.0.86 these .dts files from DTS CDs play correctly.

More info here:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64707.0

Confirmed.  LAV Audio decoder doesn't cope with DTS bundled into a WAV file.  Let me ask nevcairiel (the author of LAV Audio) if there's anything we can do about it.

Thanks.

[Bill S]

Thanks Jim & Matt!

[contium]

Confirmed.  LAV Audio decoder doesn't cope with DTS bundled into a WAV file.  Let me ask nevcairiel (the author of LAV Audio) if there's anything we can do about it.

Thanks.

That makes me think that the LAV Audio decoder isn't bitperfect which would make me rather uncomfortable with its use.

[Matt]

That makes me think that the LAV Audio decoder isn't bitperfect which would make me rather uncomfortable with its use.

LAV is simply not decoding the encoded DTS to PCM.

If you pass the encoded DTS to an outboard decoder using a bitperfect connection, it'll decode properly.  This proves that LAV _is_ bitperfect.

You could argue that LAV is doing the right thing here, because the DTS-in-WAV format is a hack.  The WAV header contains a format tag, but DTS-in-WAV files lie and say they're PCM format when they're not.

[glynor]

Wouldn't it make more sense to remux those into a better container?

How hard would it be to make them into MKA files?  Would MKVMerge do it with a simple drag-drop command?

I don't think I have any DTS-WAV files lying about anymore to test...

EDIT: I should have known... Madshi's eac3to.  I need to find a good gui for that and learn what it can do.  I'm too lazy to use things on the command line much if I don't have to (though it is nice to have that option for automated conversions and whatnot).

[Daydream]

EDIT: I should have known... Madshi's eac3to.

I'm curious if you gonna get anywhere with that because it didn't work for me (regardless if the input was detected as WAV, DTSWAV or DTS).

[Bill S]

Yeah I tried muxing some of these files into .mka via mkvmerge, but the result was the same (static).  I guess I could try dtsparser first so that it has a proper dts header, and then muxing - but I'm still wary of dtsparser due to the track time issue (see earlier in thread).

[Bill S]

16.0.122 contains following change:

"Added handling of DTS-in-WAV files with a .wav extension so that they always get decoded instead of playing as noise (automatic decoding via LAV Audio hopefully coming soon)."


I just upgraded to the latest but still couldn't get dts ripped from dts cd to work.

Version: 16.0.123
Source: File ripped from a DTS CD
Video > DirectShow selection method: Red October Standard


I tried all combinations of

  File Extension: .wav,  .dts
  File Type field: .wav,  .dts

File Types > DTS Audio setup: For 'File Types'...
  Playback Method: Tried... 'J River audio engine', 'JRiver video engine', and 'Automatic'
  For the first two above, Source Filter is 'AC3File' and Other Filters is 'ffdshow Audio Decoder'


Maybe one of my settings isn't correct?  Should Source Filter and Other Filters for dts be something different?  How to playback dts-in-wav with .wav extension?

With LAV Audio decoding hopefully on the way soon, if its felt that it then should work then I don't mind waiting.  Thanks!
 

[dmm]

I struggled with exactly the same problem.  Static Static Static.  However, at least for DTS in WMA and DTS in WAV files the FIX for me was the following:

goto OPTIONS, MEDIA NETWORK, CLIENT OPTIONS

Then turn off all AUDIO CONVERSIONS

I did this on both my MC16 server as well as client.

Now I can bitstream dts perfectly in WMA and WAV files.

I still have some sort of problem with files with a .dts file extension that I am still working on.  When I play those files I do not get bitstreaming.  Instead I get 2 channel PCM only output to my receiver.  The 5.1 encoded stream is being decoded by MC16 for some reason.

but at least I don't get static anymore.

[dmm]

ok now I have .dts files bitstreaming working as well.

1.  goto MC16 options - video - general video settings - directshow selection method
select "Red October with additional filters" and bitstreaming YES

2.  goto MC16 options - file types - .dts settings
select "j. river audio engine using directshow"
select "source filter" automatic
select "other filter" AC3Filter
select AC3Filter "configure"
setup AC3Filter as follows:
Main Tab- output format AS IS, rate AS IS, Forma PCM 16 bit, USE SPDIF Checked Yes
SPDIF Tab - SPDIF passthrough AC3 and DTS checked YES, SPDIF/DTS Padded DTS, SPDIF/DTS Conversion Do Not Convert, SPDIF Options Detect SPDIF stream in PCM Yes Checked.

I tried using FFDSHOW audio decoders for bitstream, I got a corruputed output, not static but slooooww sound.  AC3Filter worked for me for bitstreaming.  http://ac3filter.net/

[Bill S]

Thanks dmm!  I tried v16.0.126 using ac3filter per your settings, but with some changes since I need for it to decode instead of bitstream (I'm not using s/pdif).  Unfortunately it still didn't work.       

Does anyone have ripped DTS-CD/playback-from-computer without bitstreaming working? 

[Matt]

It looks like we can use ffdshow for audio decoding instead of LAV (until LAV adds native support).

So a coming build of Media Center will have automatic DTS decoding.  There will be no need to customize anything in File Types (and it's recommended that you don't).

Thanks.

[Bill S]

Cool, thank you very much!