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[TheLion]

I have big troubles with JRSS (I am not sure which build broke it as I haven't used it in a while). I use the following parameters in Output Format: "Channels" 7.1. JRSS. Subwoofer Silent (Bass management in Room Correction).

In Room Correction I set distance, volume level and bass management. No other filters in DSP studio engaged. Decoding is via LAV Audio (default settings). ASIO output.

After watching some movie sequences (5.1 -> 7.1 via JRSS) and getting the impression that something is off I take two calibration discs to confirm: Disneys WOW and AIX Reference Calibration Disc (both on Blu-Ray). I simply play the channel identification clip.

in 5.1: the fronts are ok, when the right surround should play it is mixed by JRSS to the Right Back and the Right and Left (with the left much louder than the right!!!) Side channel of my 7.1 setup. The Left Surround channel plays on Left Side, Right Side, Left Back. So at least the right surround channel is off.

in 6.1: The Surround channels JRSS mixing is off just like with the 5.1 stream. The Back Center doesn't play at all. I have to use the LAV Audio option of upmixing 6.1 to 7.1 -> then everything plays fine (because JRSS isn't engaged)

Another very disturbing behavior: When the 5.1 channel identification clip is played and the pink noise should play on the Left Front it plays there and suddenly switches to pink noise from all 7 channels. This doesn't happen always (!), but is clearly re-producible (it happens always when first starting the clip). I also found this behavior when watching certain movie sequences (eg. it happened during a sequence in Deadwood - suddenly the whole sound stage changes because something triggers JRSS to upmix the front left to all other channels).

Everything I mentioned is confirmed by channel identification sequences from both calibration discs and "real world" movie watching.   

[mojave]

I haven't watched a movie in surround for several week. I am changing my surround speakers and have no rear speakers installed right now. I do have both calibration discs you mentioned and can try to verify your issues on my system.

I did set everything to reference level using the the WOW Disc and the new Reference Level Option on about May 10 and didn't have any issues with JRSS. Now that I think about it, JRSS would have been off while setting the levels since I was using the 7.1 track.

[TheLion]

Thank you for the efforts, mojave!

[mojave]

I tested with both the AIX and WOW calibration discs. Since my rear surrounds aren't installed right now I used Mix Channels to copy the rear channels to my side channels. I listened once with Mix Channels off and once with it on so I could hear what was happening in each surround.

in 5.1: the fronts are ok, when the right surround should play it is mixed by JRSS to the Right Back and the Right and Left (with the left much louder than the right!!!) Side channel of my 7.1 setup. The Left Surround channel plays on Left Side, Right Side, Left Back.

Confirmed - The left was much louder than the right, too.

in 6.1: The Surround channels JRSS mixing is off just like with the 5.1 stream. The Back Center doesn't play at all. I have to use the LAV Audio option of upmixing 6.1 to 7.1 -> then everything plays fine (because JRSS isn't engaged)

Confirmed. This is bad because one is missing the complete rear channel in movies like LOTR and Star Wars.

Another very disturbing behavior: When the 5.1 channel identification clip is played and the pink noise should play on the Left Front it plays there and suddenly switches to pink noise from all 7 channels. This doesn't happen always (!), but is clearly re-producible (it happens always when first starting the clip).

I wasn't able to reproduce this with either disc. Can you tell me the exact m2ts file you played?

[TheLion]

Thank you! It is happening eg. when playing stream 00586. Occasionally - I am not quite sure what triggers JRSS to do what it does. It seems ti me that JRSS suddenly takes the stream as "mono" (with just pink noise from the left front playing) and upmixes this "mono" to 7.1 with somekind of matrix. As mentioned this happened during normal movie watching (on very few occasions), and with the calibration stream as well. Strange.

[mojave]

Thank you! It is happening eg. when playing stream 00586. Occasionally - I am not quite sure what triggers JRSS to do what it does. It seems ti me that JRSS suddenly takes the stream as "mono" (with just pink noise from the left front playing) and upmixes this "mono" to 7.1 with somekind of matrix. As mentioned this happened during normal movie watching (on very few occasions), and with the calibration stream as well. Strange.

I was able to repeat the upmixing every time using that stream. I think it might have to do with JRSS's two channel detection in a 5.1 source such as HDTV broadcasts. JRSS tries to detect when there are only two channels playing and then upmixes even though it is getting a 5.1 signal. It might even only do it for TV programs and Deadwood probably has a Media Subtype as TV Show. Try changing the Media Subtype and see if it still upmixes (if you remember the exact spot in the show).

[TheLion]

You are right, that must be it. With the 00586 stream it only happens when playback is from the beginning, once I do seek and/or jump back to the beginning of the stream it plays as it should. Is there no option to disable this 2.0 within 5.1 detection? In its current state it is potentially harmful to the playback of each and every (TV) file/Blu-ray.

Together with the other two issues JRSS is off with each and every multichannel file/stream out there. The only use for me is for Mono movie classics. As mentioned in another thread using JRSS is the only way to really get a Mono track playing (almost) only out of the Center speaker (as it should). For reasons I still don't agree with ;-) Media Center is upmixing any Mono track (and there are hundreds of classic movies in that format) to "Pseudo-Stereo", which sounds off. And all for the sake of the very few existing Mono Music tracks for which this approach seems right. In that case JRSS is a band-aid for an issue/behavior that shouldn't exist in the first place - in my humble opinion and appreciation for classic movies and there original soundtracks.  

Sorry for the rant ;-)

[Matt]

Is there a problem other than the pseudo-surround sound engaging on stream 00586?  If so, could you summarize it briefly?

Thanks.

[TheLion]

Is there a problem other than the pseudo-surround sound engaging on stream 00586?  If so, could you summarize it briefly?

Thanks.

 Hi Matt and welcome back,

please look at my first post for all explanations you may need. In short: with 5.1 -> 7.1 JRSS upmixing at least the right surround speaker is off (the left surround speaker is mixed louder than the right when an input signal on the right surround channel plays!).

6.1 tracks with JRSS enabled are also off -> the back center is silent, the issue with the upmixing of the surrounds is the same as with a 5.1 source.

And finally when I select DSP Studio -> Output Format -> Mixing -> No Up-/Downmixing I expect Media Center to do just that for all input signals. Therefor play a Mono input signal in the Center channel (when a multichannel setup is selected) and not upmix it to "pseudo-Stereo". "pseudo Stereo" can/should be an option for JRSS to suit (very rare) mono music releases.

btw the issue with pseudo-surround sound engaging happens also with real-world Blu-Ray playback in certain scenes.


This has kindly been confirmed by mojave.

Thank you!
 

[Matt]

Next build:
Fixed: JRSS 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing could cause the stereo separation in the SL / SR channels to be distorted.
Fixed: JRSS upmixing of 6.1 to 7.1 clones the rear center to the rears instead of building a rear by looking also at the surrounds.

Sorry for the problem.

[TheLion]

Next build:
Fixed: JRSS 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing could cause the stereo separation in the SL / SR channels to be distorted.
Fixed: JRSS upmixing of 6.1 to 7.1 clones the rear center to the rears instead of building a rear by looking also at the surrounds.

Sorry for the problem.

Thank you very much for the quick fix, Matt! I take it JRSS deals with 6.1 sources just like LAV Audios "Expand 6.1 to 7.1" option now -> cloning the rear center to both rear speakers. Do you correct the levels - with both rear speakers playing the channel simply cloning would result in an unbalanced loud rear soundfield?! Also the 6.1 -> 7.1 upmixing should leave all 5 front and surround speakers completely untouched, while just cloning the rears - is that how it works?

Is it intended with 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing that e.g. content isolated to the left surround channel gets upmixed to the (Left Surround, Left Rear and) Right Surround speaker as well - practically you are simulating a reflection from the other side of the room. Is this correct/intended or an issue with JRSS? Could you please explain the reasoning behind it?

One very important thing: Does JRSS 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing leave the front speakers completely untouched or is there also a "reflection from the surrounds mixed in"? Not leaving the front untouched would be a deal breaker for me.

Did you fix the issue with "JRSS's two channel detection in a 5.1 source" as well?

On the issue on Mono soundtrack playback - I take it it is your way of making me use JRSS as standard (in order to get mono tracks play just in the Center speaker) ;-)

Once again, THANK you very much Matt!

[Matt]

I take it JRSS deals with 6.1 sources just like LAV Audios "Expand 6.1 to 7.1" option now -> cloning the rear center to both rear speakers. Do you correct the levels - with both rear speakers playing the channel simply cloning would result in an unbalanced loud rear soundfield?!

It clones and handles power properly.

Also the 6.1 -> 7.1 upmixing should leave all 5 front and surround speakers completely untouched, while just cloning the rears - is that how it works?

Yes.

Is it intended with 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing that e.g. content isolated to the left surround channel gets upmixed to the (Left Surround, Left Rear and) Right Surround speaker as well - practically you are simulating a reflection from the other side of the room. Is this correct/intended or an issue with JRSS? Could you please explain the reasoning behind it?

Please test again once the new build is available.

[TheLion]

Thanks for the new build, Matt.

- The issue with the left surround playing louder than the right surround for right surround signals is resolved!
- But JRSS still mixes sound to the opposite surround channel (at ~5db lower level). So e.g. when some content is played in the left surround channel (5.1 mix) JRSS upmixes this signal so that it is played from the left surround (which is OK ;-), the left rear (which is also OK) and the right surround at -5db -> I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the last.
- The issue with  "JRSS's two channel detection in a 5.1 source" is not resolved!

Thanks!

[TheLion]

Matt,

I just checked the 6.1 stream and the back rear still is silent (with LAV Audio doing the cloning it works flawlessly). Left and Right Surround play correctly now with 6.1 input streams.

Please check again. Thank you!

[Matt]

- But JRSS still mixes sound to the opposite surround channel (at ~5db lower level). So e.g. when some content is played in the left surround channel (5.1 mix) JRSS upmixes this signal so that it is played from the left surround (which is OK ;-), the left rear (which is also OK) and the right surround at -5db -> I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the last.

The surrounds accentuate the stereo differences of the surrounds in the 5.1, sometimes called the "side" channel information.  To do this, what's in the left does affect what comes out the right (and vice-versa).  What you hear with pink noise will be a good test of levels, but not exactly the same as what you'll get when you play a real signal that will likely have much more coherence between the left and right.

[Matt]

I just checked the 6.1 stream and the back rear still is silent (with LAV Audio doing the cloning it works flawlessly). Left and Right Surround play correctly now with 6.1 input streams.

Are you using 'JRSS' or 'None' for the mixing?  I was testing JRSS and it was working for me.

'None' will just drop the rear center channel since it doesn't map to an output channel.

'Clone' should probably clone from the rear center to the other rears, although I'm not sure if it's doing that (I'll check tomorrow).

[TheLion]

I have JRSS enabled (with for Stereo Souces mix only to 2.1 checked). Channels set to 7.1. I use e.g. WOW calibration Blu-ray stream 00587. LAV Audio decodes all 6.1 channels correctly (as shown in the status tab). MC shows 6.1 as input and 8 channels as output. Still there is no signal in either rear speaker.

After my experience with it and your description how JRSS deals with surround channel information while doing 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing I now know that it is not for me. For my taste the surround sound field becomes much too diffuse with JRSS, especially specific acoustic details and voices coming from the surrounds give an entirely different impression than with straight 5.1 decoding. I agree that JRSS is a very good thing for people how like to listen to stereo sources upmixed to multichannel.


But you mentioned the option "clone side channels to rear speakers" instead of using JRSS. For me this is a very good compromise - getting a more diffuse/spacious surround sound field while keeping the original balance intact.
So when you check this option please make sure that it handles power/levels probably. The last time I used it I got the impression that it simply clones the side surrounds to the rear speakers with full level -> so with double the speakers playing the surround sound field was too pronounced.
 

[TheLion]

Matt,

I just did a quick check. The Clone-mode is also off. It doesn't play either rear with an 6.1 stream. And it doesn't handle power properly - it just clones the side to the rear surround speakers at unaltered levels. Therefor with 2 speakers playing the same signal the surround field is louder than with straight 5.1 decoding.

Please look into this. Thank you!

[Matt]

As for 6.1, the rear center is working properly for me.  Could you try this test clip:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/6_1_sample.dts

I just did a quick check. The Clone-mode is also off. It doesn't play either rear with an 6.1 stream. And it doesn't handle power properly - it just clones the side to the rear surround speakers at unaltered levels. Therefor with 2 speakers playing the same signal the surround field is louder than with straight 5.1 decoding.

That's what cloning is.  A simple clone, with no level adjustment.

You have to use JRSS if you want smarter level handling.

[mojave]

As for 6.1, the rear center is working properly for me.  Could you try this test clip:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/6_1_sample.dts

Your dts sample clip works, but the WOW 6.1 test clip does not work with JRSS. Here is what happens with the WOW clip:

• Surround Right > Surround Right
• Back > Silent
• Surround Left > Surround Left, Back Left, Back Right

LAV does decode and upmix 6.1>7.1 both the dts clip and the WOW 6.1 clip correctly.

Is there any reason not to have "expand 6.1 to 7.1" checked in the JRiver installation of LAV?

[Matt]

Would it be possible to share the WOW sample (or even the first few MB) with me?

I'm wondering if we're getting in trouble if the rear center isn't at index 6 (zero-based).

[mojave]

Would it be possible to share the WOW sample (or even the first few MB) with me?

I'm wondering if we're getting in trouble if the rear center isn't at index 6 (zero-based).

I just uploaded to Dropbox and sent you the link.

[Matt]

Thanks for the sample.

Next build:
Fixed: 6.1 to 7.1 upmixing was not working properly for the rear speakers in some cases.

During channel mixing there are three formats: input, working (changes as you move towards output), and output.  I was looking at the input format instead of the working format and getting in trouble in certain cases.

[TheLion]

Thanks to Matt and Mojave for the support!

Matt, wouldn't it possible to make the "clone mode" handle power properly? As it is now it is not usable because if I set levels correctly for all 7.1 channels and use "clone mode" for 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing the surround field is too loud. If I set levels so that the cloned surrounds (with both playing) have the right level any 7.1 movie will have surround and rear channels that are accentuated.

But I take it it is not easy to find a proper way to handle power in that case. With 2 speaker playing the same signal it is up to 6db louder - but that depends on the frequency and the space between the speakers...

[mojave]

if I set levels correctly for all 7.1 channels and use "clone mode" for 5.1 -> 7.1 upmixing the surround field is too loud. If I set levels so that the cloned surrounds (with both playing) have the right level any 7.1 movie will have surround and rear channels that are accentuated.

Did you realize these are essentially the same thing.  I think you meant "attenuated".

I wish JRiver would add a dropdown in the custom video mode to select a zone. Besides "type" and "filter" we could also select "zone." This would allow mono, 2.0, 2.1, 5.1, 7.1, etc. to each play to their own zone. We could even use conditions to select 5.1 with Media Subtype as Music vs 5.1 with Media Subtype as Movie. Of course this would have to work for audio only sources, too.

By using various zones we could have different DSP for various types of music/movies. The user would then have entire control over Output Format, Parametric EQ, Room Correction, JRSS, etc. all based on how their library is tagged.

Example:  In TheLion's case he could have one zone for 5.1 with cloning and certain levels for the surrounds. He could have another zone for 7.1 with different levels for the surrounds. One would just pick a movie and JRiver would automatically play with the correct zone settings.

Example:  Kids movies could have their volume capped at 60% to prevent the kids from accidentally playing them too loud.

To make it easier we would also need to be able to clone zones.

[TheLion]

mea culpa - attenuated it is (my excuse: english isn't my native tongue  ) I like the idea about zones - although in my case it is not necessary.

Matt,

you added the following in the latest build: 1. Changed: When using the mixing mode 'Clone side channels to rear speakers', if there's a rear center it will be used for the clone (at half-power to each rear) instead of the surrounds. Thank you for that.

I still don't understand why the mixing mode "Clone" doesn't do what you do for the rear speakers for the surrounds as well?? When "cloning" the surrounds for 5.1->7.1 upmixing it should/must be done at half-power to each side/rear speaker! That way the calibrated levels would be correct in each and every channel mode!

Thank you for your kind consideration!

[Matt]

I still don't understand why the mixing mode "Clone" doesn't do what you do for the rear speakers for the surrounds as well?? When "cloning" the surrounds for 5.1->7.1 upmixing it should/must be done at half-power to each side/rear speaker! That way the calibrated levels would be correct in each and every channel mode!

Clone mode is mostly for 4.0 systems (common with computer speakers) when they play 2.0 content.

With a 5.1 / 7.1 system, I think you should use JRSS.

[TheLion]

Thanks, I will give JRSS another shot 

Matt,

did you find a solution for the issue with  "JRSS's two channel detection in a 5.1 source"? How about making this detection optional? Thank you!

[TheLion]

Matt,

after using JRSS for a while now I must say I really like the diffuse and yet detailed surround sound stage it creates with 5.1->7.1 upmixing. From the problems I described the latest build has fixed 2 - so 7.1 upmixing with 5.1 and 6.1 sources works as indented.

The only remaining issue is "JRSS's two channel detection in a 5.1 source". This has been triggered on several occasions with Blu-Ray 5.1 content and is very disturbing. A good example to test this is stream 00587 of the WOW calibration blu-ray. This is a 5.1 channel test. When the front left speakers plays and JRSS is enabled it presumably take the stream for a stereo stream in 5.1 container and upmixes this 1 channel to all 7. As mentioned this also happens on occasion with normal 5.1 movie/TV content and is very disturbing when it suddenly kicks in.

Please make this detection optional. Thank you!   

[Matt]

I have no idea how common 2.0 in a 5.1 container is.  But I know the Minneapolis PBS station ( JRiver has some important users that live in Minneapolis ) does this for most programs.  It sounds terrible without the pseudo-surround detector.

I tried writing to PBS to ask them to stop, but it didn't sound like it would happen soon.

The detector only triggers if the mains are playing with nothing in any surround or the subwoofer for a certain amount of time.  I can't imagine (nor have I seen) real world content that triggers this.  Most sound comes out of the center, and if the mains are playing, the subwoofer and center will have something on it.

I might be able to handle calibration discs specially by detecting streams that only talk to one channel.

[TheLion]

Matt,

calibration discs certainly are not the issue - I don't care much if those play correctly as my enjoyment of them is rather limited ;-) They are just used to analyse a given problem. If I hear that something is off during movie watching I take calibration discs to confirm the issue. As happened with the JRSS issues described above (it is rather strange that nobody recognized the wrong/swapped surround channel mixing before). The issue of upmixing the front left and right to all channels during a 5.1 soundtrack is something I noticed during watching an episode of Deadwood. During a scene the soundfield suddenly and radically so changed. The surrounds, which were dead silent in this scene, suddenly were active. The Center channel was also silent during this non-dialog scene. It is a rather weird issue. So I disabled JRSS and the problem was fixed. Then, and only then, I used calibration discs to see what is going on.

It is certainly much more common that movies/TV shows have certain scenes with no activity in the Center and Surround Channels than the special case of said Minneapolis PBS station   If this detection is not made optional (for those important users in Minneapolis ;-) may I suggest that you simply deactivate it based on source type - If source is any DVD, Blu-Ray or file based 5.1 content (other than recorded TV streams) this detection potentially does harm but certainly no good. Thank you!


Another issue with JRSS arised yesterday: I was watching the Criterion Blu-Ray of Kurosawas "High and Low". This Blu-Ray comes with a 4.0 soundtrack. LAV Audio decodes the DTS MA track correctly with Front Left, Front Right, Center and 1 channel Surround Back. Media Center doesn't route this channel matrix correctly. If I select 7.1 as "Channels" it doesn't matter if upmixing is disabled or JRSS is engaged - the Center channel gets mixed to the left surround output.
First I thought that 4.0 for Media Center uses Left/Right Front, Left/Right Surround as I think that's a music format - it would explain routing the Center to the Surround speaker.
But when I select "4.0" in DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels it plays correctly (it doesn't matter if JRSS is enabled or not).

I don't quite understand the "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels" option. It says that this is the number of channels used for playback. But in cases like my example above it needs to be manually adjusted to the source format - which is hardly user friendly   If I leave it to "Source Format" all 5.1 channel sources are routed wrongly for my 7.1 setup -> Surround channels get mixed to Back Surround due to the channel order of 7.1.

In my opinion the following may be considered much more user friendly:  let the user specify his/her physical channel layout with "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels". When I have 7.1 speakers I select 7.1. Now MC can route any source format to this output channel layout. If additionally I enable JRSS any source format (other than stereo if that option is used) is upmixed to 7.1.

As it is now I have to e.g. choose 4.0 as channel layout (although I have a 7.1 setup) to make use of 4.0 source formats. While I have to set channels to 7.1 in order to play 5.1 streams in the correct channel order. I hope you see that's hardly an intuitive or logical approach.

The good news is that nevcairiel has done a fantastic job with LAV audio of correctly handling all source format/source channel layouts that are out there. MC's "only" job is to route (or upmix) this correctly decoded stream from LAV Audio to the physical speaker layout of the user. Be it Stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 or something more special  

Thank you very much for your consideration, Matt.  

[Matt]

Another issue with JRSS arised yesterday: I was watching the Criterion Blu-Ray of Kurosawas "High and Low". This Blu-Ray comes with a 4.0 soundtrack. LAV Audio decodes the DTS MA track correctly with Front Left, Front Right, Center and 1 channel Surround Back. Media Center doesn't route this channel matrix correctly.

Could you provide that sample?

I think LAV outputs 4 channel sources inside a more standard 6 or 8 channel container.  At least the few 4 channel DTS files I'm testing do that.  So Media Center is only upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1 in those cases.

We might need to ask nevcairiel on this.

[TheLion]

Matt,

thanks for the reply!

DSP Studio shows 4 channel input - so LAV doesn't output in a more standard container. But there is an option in LAV audio that does just that - convert the output to standard channel layouts. I am sure enabling this results in correct playback as LAV Audio handles the different channel layouts perfectly. I will enable this option as it should "band aid" the problem.

What do you think about the following suggestion:

"I don't quite understand the "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels" option. It says that this is the number of channels used for playback. But in cases like my example above it needs to be manually adjusted to the source format - which is hardly user friendly   If I leave it to "Source Format" all 5.1 channel sources are routed wrongly for my 7.1 setup -> Surround channels get mixed to Back Surround due to the channel order of 7.1.

In my opinion the following may be considered much more user friendly:  let the user specify his/her physical channel layout with "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels". When I have 7.1 speakers I select 7.1. Now MC can route any source format to this output channel layout. If additionally I enable JRSS any source format (other than stereo if that option is used) is upmixed to this physical speaker layout (e.g. 7.1)"

Thank you!

[Hendrik]

I think LAV outputs 4 channel sources inside a more standard 6 or 8 channel container.  At least the few 4 channel DTS files I'm testing do that.  So Media Center is only upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1 in those cases.

By default, yes. You can turn that off though, the options is called "Convert Output to Standard Channel Layouts" or "SetOutputStandardLayout" in API (I consider Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 "standard")

[Matt]

DSP Studio shows 4 channel input - so LAV doesn't output in a more standard container. But there is an option in LAV audio that does just that - convert the output to standard channel layouts. I am sure enabling this results in correct playback as LAV Audio handles the different channel layouts perfectly. I will enable this option as it should "band aid" the problem.

It's possible we're not supporting all channel arrangements.  There are some really weird ones.

But please test using Red October, so that LAV is configured as we expect.

In my opinion the following may be considered much more user friendly:  let the user specify his/her physical channel layout with "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels". When I have 7.1 speakers I select 7.1.

That is how it works.  Anything else is a bug (or configuration error from not using Red October).

[mojave]

In my opinion the following may be considered much more user friendly:  let the user specify his/her physical channel layout with "DSP Studio/Output Format/Channels". When I have 7.1 speakers I select 7.1. Now MC can route any source format to this output channel layout. If additionally I enable JRSS any source format (other than stereo if that option is used) is upmixed to this physical speaker layout (e.g. 7.1)

That is how it is supposed to currently work. I think this is just an example of JRiver not realizing there is 4.0 audio in some movies with LCR & Surround. I'm sure Matt will get it fixed. (Edit:  Matt just posted similar).

I checked at blu-raystats.com and found only four Blu-rays out of 6223 that are 4.0. There are 8 that are 3.0, 56 that are 5.0, and 194 that are mono.

[TheLion]

The 4.0 problem is resolved with LAV Audio converting it to standard 5.1 layout. This is the standard configuration when using Red October (which I couldn't use because I need the 6.1->7.1 cloning in LAV Audio enabled to make this format work). But in that case LAV audio is a "band aid" for MC.

The one format that isn't handled correctly is Mono (without JRSS enabled). With 194 movies (some of the best of all times) out there this is an issue.

[TheLion]

By default, yes. You can turn that off though, the options is called "Convert Output to Standard Channel Layouts" or "SetOutputStandardLayout" in API (I consider Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 "standard")

nevcairiel,

would it be possible to NOT consider Mono a "standard layout" in LAV Audio? MC is one of the playback engines which doesn't deal with Mono streams correctly - instead of routing it to the Center channel in a 5.1/7.1 speaker setup it clones the Mono channel for Pseudo Stereo output by default. Matt sees good reason in that.

If LAV Audio would output Mono tracks in a 5.1 container that issue would be resolved - without any drawback I can think of (other than Stereo setups which have to downmix this Mono in Multichannel container back to "fake Stereo"). Thanks!

[Matt]

Is it a clear argument that mono is better out the center (when it exists) than out the left / right?

If there is, we'll change it.

[Hendrik]

would it be possible to NOT consider Mono a "standard layout" in LAV Audio?

Of course it would be possible, but its not going to happen. Mono is a perfectly fine format.
The option is meant to work around problems in the HDMI implementation (you cannot specify a channel mask over HDMI), not for players that don't behave the way you like them to.

[TheLion]

Of course it would be possible, but its not going to happen. Mono is a perfectly fine format.
The option is meant to work around problems in the HDMI implementation (you cannot specify a channel mask over HDMI), not for players that don't behave the way you like them to.

I certainly agree that mono is a "perfectly fine standard format". It would have been just another band aid to help fix issues downstream (like your 6.1->7-1 option).

[mojave]

Is it a clear argument that mono is better out the center (when it exists) than out the left / right?

Etymologically, mono is short for monophonic which is a combination of two Greek words that mean "single" and "voice." Historically, mono was a single audio channel in both format and output. In Pro Audio, many channels can be mixed to mono - a single channel for output so everyone hears the same signal and at the same relative volume. This is used for houses of worship and other public venues that prioritize speech intelligibility. Even though it is mono, there are multiple speakers producing the output. Regardless of how mono has been used, it always refers to a single channel. Therefore, I think it should stay a single channel as the default.

I think it should come out of the center for any Output Format other than 2 Channels (stereo). For those that want it in stereo, they can just click "Move center to front L/R" and can still listen to it in stereo. A more automated approach would to have the default be mono from the center with a checkbox that says "Play mono source in stereo." My first suggestion requires checking\unchecking "Move center to front L/R" depending on whether the content is mono or not.

Those that want mono in multiple speakers similar to Pro Audio can use the DSP and channel mixing.

[Matt]

Maybe mono music and mono movies are different.

For music, most people seem to want mono split to L/R.  And by "seem to want", I mean they would riot and get pitchforks if we changed it.

For movies, it's probably a little different since most content is mastered to use the center speaker predominantly.  So a compromise might be to put mono out the center speaker for video content, but not for audio content.

[mojave]

While we are discussing JRSS I wanted to bring up something else. I do not use a center speaker in either of my setups and always have "Move center to front L/R" checked. About a month or two ago I did a bunch of testing for music with JRSS mixing to my surrounds. I liked the ambiance it added. However, the output from the front speakers sounded different and I didn't like it as much. To check what I thought I was hearing, I muted the rear surrounds and listened with "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" both checked and unchecked. I would stop playback and then restart with the new setting. They always sounded different.

Originally I think JRSS mixed a center channel from stereo and then folded it back into the mains when "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" was checked. Later I think it was changed so no center channel was ever mixed when that option was checked. In other words, the mains were left untouched. Is that still the case? To me it sounds like something is changing with the mains when JRSS is on.  

[TheLion]

Etymologically, mono is short for monophonic which is a combination of two Greek words that mean "single" and "voice." Historically, mono was a single audio channel in both format and output. In Pro Audio, many channels can be mixed to mono - a single channel for output so everyone hears the same signal and at the same relative volume. This is used for houses of worship and other public venues that prioritize speech intelligibility. Even though it is mono, there are multiple speakers producing the output. Regardless of how mono has been used, it always refers to a single channel. Therefore, I think it should stay a single channel as the default.

I think it should come out of the center for any Output Format other than 2 Channels (stereo). For those that want it in stereo, they can just click "Move center to front L/R" and can still listen to it in stereo. A more automated approach would to have the default be mono from the center with a checkbox that says "Play mono source in stereo." My first suggestion requires checking\unchecking "Move center to front L/R" depending on whether the content is mono or not.

Those that want mono in multiple speakers similar to Pro Audio can use the DSP and channel mixing.

THANK YOU mojave. I couldn't agree more.

For a discussion about practical reasons I tried my best in this thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72326.0

e.g.: "Regarding the old thread: I completely understand and agree with playing Mono ->MUSIC<- files in pseudo stereo. They are supposed to be played that way.

BUT Mono ->Movies<- are certainly supposed to be output as single channel and not in upmixed "pseudo stereo". In an home theater environment Stereo is very problematic when more people are sitting in a row. E.g. the person sitting at the left end of the couch is not getting proper imaging and hears the left speaker much louder than the right one. "

[TheLion]

Maybe mono music and mono movies are different.

For music, most people seem to want mono split to L/R.  And by "seem to want", I mean they would riot and get pitchforks if we changed it.

For movies, it's probably a little different since most content is mastered to use the center speaker predominantly.  So a compromise might be to put mono out the center speaker for video content, but not for audio content.

That would be great, Matt,

Here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72326.msg489467#msg489467 I suggested practically that:

"Matt, would it be possible to add the following to the code: When upmixing/JRSS is disabled and a multichannel speaker layout is selected in Output Format channels (5.1, 7.1) AND video playback is used THAN all input channels should be routed 1:1 to the appropriate output channels. This means Mono movies play as Mono output channel in the Center. "

And don't worry - I don't riot nor use my pitchfork - I am just a tiresome inconvenience (with only the best of intentions)

[TheLion]

Another interesting argument: Most receivers/Pre-Pros out there have a DSP-mode called "Mono Movie Mode" or simular - this mode is for "playback of Mono movies as they are intended". And guess what this mode does? It always routes the mono stream to the Center channel with all other channels silent. Interestingly enough there is most of the time another mode, called "Mono", which is for playback of Mono Music content. And this mode does what Media Center does - upmixing Mono to Pseudo Stereo. 

[JustinChase]

So a compromise might be to put mono out the center speaker for video content, but not for audio content.

That seems a good compromise.

However, I still think this resolves all issues, once and for all...

I agree that if the user sets Channels: to "Source number of channels" in the settings, MC should do no conversion of any kind (except in the 3 instances below). 

This puts us back to mono going to left front only though.  Sending a Mono signal to a center channel would fix the original request in this thread, but won't help for Audio and 2 Channel only systems.

However, allowing limited "JRSS mixing" in conjunction with "Source number of channels" and a couple little tweaks fixes it all, I think.

Send Mono to Center
Expand Mono to Stereo
Mix Stereo sources to 2.1
Move center to front L/R

These 2 new options added and all 4 allowed with "Source number of channels" should fix all use cases I've seen mentioned lately.

This lets each user specify how they want to deal with Mono.  Leave it alone OR send it to the center speaker OR expand to stereo.  Then, if they also check Mix Stereo sources to 2.1, the Mono they choose to split into Stereo can further be expanded to 2.1, if they wish.  It also allows those without a center speaker to split that channel to the L/R speakers.

This seems MUCH better to me than adding yet another workaround to the complexity.

[Matt]

While we are discussing JRSS I wanted to bring up something else. I do not use a center speaker in either of my setups and always have "Move center to front L/R" checked. About a month or two ago I did a bunch of testing for music with JRSS mixing to my surrounds. I liked the ambiance it added. However, the output from the front speakers sounded different and I didn't like it as much.

I can't reproduce an issue with 2.0 music.

The left and right channels are bit-perfect when doing upmixing, even with 'Move center to front L/R' checked.

[Matt]

For mono, next build:
Changed: When JRSS does center focused mixing (used for videos other than music videos), mono videos will output on the center speaker instead of as pseudo stereo.