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[mojave]

I can't reproduce an issue with 2.0 music.

The left and right channels are bit-perfect when doing upmixing, even with 'Move center to front L/R' checked.

Try using JPay.   j/k

For mono, next build:
Changed: When JRSS does center focused mixing (used for videos other than music videos), mono videos will output on the center speaker instead of as pseudo stereo.

Now I'm going to have to get some mono movies. 

[mojave]

I did mean that  , but did you follow my link?

http://www.jpay.com/PMusic.aspx

[JustinChase]

I did mean that  , but did you follow my link?

http://www.jpay.com/PMusic.aspx

I did, but I didn't look closely the first time.  A music player just for prisoners?!?!?  Now that's some marketing!

"can be downloaded and synced with the corrections-approved JP3 player"

Brilliant 

[TheLion]

For mono, next build:
Changed: When JRSS does center focused mixing (used for videos other than music videos), mono videos will output on the center speaker instead of as pseudo stereo.

Matt,

so now I am really confused... When I enable JRSS I already get Mono movies playing mainly in the Center channel. The issue is that I still don't want to use JRSS as default - some movies don't sound right with the 5.1->7.1 upmixing and I certainly don't want that kind of processing with any 5.1 Music content. So JRSS is disabled which should disable all upmixing (-> also the pseudo stereo upmixing).

So I want to set channels to 7.1 (as this is my physical channel layout), no upmixing and this should provide correct channel routing for all potential layouts (streams coming from LAV Audio) -> including Mono tracks correctly playing as Mono in the Center. This is the correct approach IMHO.

[JustinChase]

Matt,

so now I am really confused... When I enable JRSS I already get Mono movies playing mainly in the Center channel. The issue is that I still don't want to use JRSS as default - some movies don't sound right with the 5.1->7.1 upmixing and I certainly don't want that kind of processing with any 5.1 Music content. So JRSS is disabled which should disable all upmixing (-> also the pseudo stereo upmixing).

So I want to set channels to 7.1 (as this is my physical channel layout), no upmixing and this should provide correct channel routing for all potential layouts (streams coming from LAV Audio) -> including Mono tracks correctly playing as Mono in the Center. This is the correct approach IMHO.

this could be resolved with...

...allowing limited "JRSS mixing" in conjunction with "Source number of channels" and a couple little tweaks fixes it all, I think.

Send Mono to Center
Expand Mono to Stereo
Mix Stereo sources to 2.1
Move center to front L/R

[mojave]

TheLion, you mentioned earlier in this thread that "I like the idea about zones - although in my case it is not necessary."

With what you are describing, you really could use the Automatic Zone Selection system I suggested. You would have a zone for mono, 5.1 music, and 7.1. These all are identical including ASIO output to your Orpheus Prism. The only difference for each zone would be how you setup Output Format. Using a "Zone Wizard" you could then specify that all mono movies go to the mono zone, all 5.1 music sources go to the music zone, and all other sources go to the 7.1 zone. If "for stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" was checked for the 7.1 zone, then you would have the following:

Mono movies > Mono zone and only center speaker
Mono music > 7.1 zone and stereo
2.0 > 7.1 zone and 2.1
2.1 > 7.1 zone and 2.1
4.0 > 7.1 zone and upmixed to 7.1 (or you could also have a 4.0 zone with no upmixing)
5.1 music > 5.1 music zone and no upmixing
5.1 movies > 7.1 zone and upmixed to 7.1 (or you could specify that some movies still use the 5.1 music zone for no upmixing)
6.1 > 7.1 zone and upmixed to 7.1
7.1 > 7.1 zone with no changes

You could also have different bass management and/or convolution for the 5.1 audio zone.
With the ability to specify criteria for zone, we could have unlimited control over how we hear and see our media. We would no longer need to ask for "one setting that fits all."

this could be resolved with...

Send Mono to Center
Expand Mono to Stereo
Mix Stereo sources to 2.1
Move center to front L/R

Only one mono choice is needed with the other being the default. This doesn't really solve the problem for one who wants mono to the center for movies and mono to stereo for music and still wants 5.1/6.1 movies upmixed to 7.1. He will still have to manually change Output Format for some viewing/listening.

[TheLion]

Ok, this is getting complicated again 

First of all I was told that Output Format->"Channels" defines the physical speaker layout. I don't agree that this is the case atm - options like "source number of channels" and the couple of stream in container options contradict that notion.

The way MC handles and mixes channel layouts atm is not logical to me. All we need IMHO is the option to define the physical speaker layout of the used setup (in my case 7.1) and the option "Mixing", which is already present.

When I disable JRSS mixing, therefor selecting the option "No upmixing or downmixing" it is to be expected that Media Center does just that - 1:1 channel routing of the input streams with various formats (from Mono to 4.0 to 7.1) to my speaker layout. Therefor a Mono signal has to be played from the Center as Pseudo Stereo is per definition upmixing.

Case 2: I enable upmixing/JRSS. Now there can/should be an option to upmix Mono to pseudo stereo or leave it mono (for setups with a center). This is 1 additional option just like the move center or only mix stereo to 2.1 options available now. As proposed by Matt this selection can also be done automatically based on content type (video = True Mono, audio only = pseudo stereo).

[JustinChase]

Only one mono choice is needed with the other being the default. This doesn't really solve the problem for one who wants mono to the center for movies and mono to stereo for music and still wants 5.1/6.1 movies upmixed to 7.1. He will still have to manually change Output Format for some viewing/listening.

Actually, the current default is to do nothing with Mono, sending it to the left speaker, I believe; for the real purists.

If someone wants 5.1 and 6.1 movies upmixed, they just need to use JRSS I think.  This is meant for those that want to do no upmixing, except these special cases.

As for handling mono differently for video and music, another option could be enabled if any of the move mono options are selected.  Or simply force mono to the center for video only, since no other option really makes any sense.

It just seems to me that there are already now 3 special cases, and 2 aren't user changable; where this system allows total control, without any more special handling, and I think results in more configure-ability, and provides the benefit of not forcing a user to use JRSS if they don't want, but still get special mono handling.

It feels like more time and energy has already been spent NOT doing this, to get inferior results, than just making what seems to be a very simple change.  But again, I don't know the details of the code, so maybe it's not easy.

[TheLion]

Matt,

I take it build 172 does what I described in my "case 2" above (automatically). Thank you very much for that!

The curios situation is now that if I enable upmixing (JRSS) Mono tracks are not upmixed and get played correctly out of the center (or in pseudo stereo for music).
But when I disable upmixing (which I still use as default setting for reasons mentioned above) Mono tracks do get upmixed to pseudo stereo    

I am sorry but it doesn't seem logical nor intuitive to me.

[JustinChase]

Therefor a Mono signal has to be played from the Center as Pseudo Stereo is per definition upmixing.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  With no upmixing, I think mono goes to the front left speaker, which it seems no one wants.  Or, it gets forced into Stereo, which some/many don't want.

Case 2: I enable upmixing/JRSS. Now there can/should be an option to upmix Mono to pseudo stereo or leave it mono (for setups with a center). This is 1 additional option just like the move center or only mix stereo to 2.1 options available now. As proposed by Matt this selection can also be done automatically based on content type (video = True Mono, audio only = pseudo stereo).

Yes, but what about my case, where I have 5.1 speakers, and I play Dark Side of the Moon DVDA, which is mixed for 4.1 channels?  I don't want any upmixing done here.  If I turn on JRSS, everything will get mixed to 5.1, which is not what I want in this case.  I don't think you'd want that either.

So, for me, the ideal is to not turn on JRSS, so that all channels go to where they belong, with no changes being made.  However, mono causes a problem, and there is no consensus on how to handle that case.

therefore my options suggestions handle this case of mono, and the other good example of forcing stereo to 2.1, and the case for splitting the center to the L/R for those that don't have a center channel.

Otherwise, I don't think there are any other special cases that need upmixing, so leaving it turned off would be fine, IF the options I suggest are implemented.

Is there any example of where my suggestion does NOT work for any use case?  I can't think of any, and if no one else can, it seems a rather simple solution to what has gotten unnecessarily complicated, IMO.

[TheLion]

Justin,

I am not sure I understand your request.

Basically we both want the same - disabling JRSS upmixing with Media Center just routing any possible source channel layout "correctly" to our physical speaker layout. This should be a straight forward thing to do.

With build 172 everything seems to work fine when JRSS is enabled.

When JRSS is disabled the following problems remain: 6.1 content isn't correctly routed to anything but a 6.1 speaker setup. This isn't a real problem because LAV Audio has the option to clone the rear surround for 7.1 playback.

Mono tracks are not correctly routed to the Center channel of a 5.1/7.1 setup. The automatic logic Matt implemented for JRSS in build 172 should also be used when the "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected (therefor either play Mono from the Center or clone it for pseudo Stereo music output)

With upmixing disabled Stereo sources play as Stereo - if you want bass management ("2.1") this is done in Room Correction or using Convolution (or PEQ). So no issue there.

Your example with a 4.1 track should be routed to your 5.1 setup without upmixing using the correct speaker layout (LF, RF, Silent Center, Sub, LS, RS). If this isn't done correctly use LAV Audio as decoder and select the "Standard Layouts" option there. This option fills your 4.1 stream with a silent Center channel in an 5.1 container.

When a setup with no Center channel is selected ("Channels") the routing has to split any source center channel to LF and RF, otherwise it would go simply silent. So this shouldn't be a problem either but isn't handled correctly atm without JRSS.


In short:

With JRSS enabled (and with LAV Audio being used with default options) any source channel format should be handled correctly from build 172. Two useful options make it configurable.

For users who don't want JRSS upmixing/downmixing of content ("purists" like myself) some source formats like 6.1 and Mono tracks aren't handled correctly atm ("correct handling" is depending on physical speaker layout set under "Channels" in DSP Studio-> Output Format).


  

[mojave]

In short:

With JRSS enabled (and with LAV Audio being used with default options) any source channel format should be handled correctly from build 172. Two useful options make it configurable.

For users who don't want JRSS upmixing/downmixing of content ("purists" like myself) some source formats like 6.1 and Mono tracks aren't handled correctly atm ("correct handling" is depending on physical speaker layout set under "Channels" in DSP Studio-> Output Format).

Your post makes complete sense.   I also agree with your designation of "correct handling" being based on physical layout when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected.  Even when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected, 6.1 can't logically go to a 7.1 system without going to both rears and mono can't logically go to a 7.1 system without being stereo or the center.

Please start a new thread called "No upmixing or downmixing broken ?!" 

[Hendrik]

This is why i use "Source Number of Channels" for Output, it'll ensure the audio is not changed, and the more fine-grained mixing/speaker routing controls in my AVR get to manage the audio.

[TheLion]

Your post makes complete sense.   I also agree with your designation of "correct handling" being based on physical layout when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected.  Even when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected, 6.1 can't logically go to a 7.1 system without going to both rears and mono can't logically go to a 7.1 system without being stereo or the center.

Please start a new thread called "No upmixing or downmixing broken ?!" 

 

[TheLion]

This is why i use "Source Number of Channels" for Output, it'll ensure the audio is not changed, and the more fine-grained mixing/speaker routing controls in my AVR get to manage the audio.

And this is exactly what shouldn't be necessary   I have my PC directly connected to a multichannel Firewire DAC (Prism Orpheus). So I depend on Media Center for all mixing/speaker routing tasks. MC is "better" and more configurable than any Pre-Pro/AVR out there with pretty much all its functions - just the basic speaker routing doesn't work right yet. This isn't my first thread about this - months ago I annoyed Matt with complains about the wrong channel order with 7.1 setups (MC had side surround and rears mixed up until then) and the wrong handling of 6.1 tracks. This has been fixed back then. JRSS is fixed now. Correct channel routing without upmixing isn't for all source formats. We are halfway there  


 

[Hendrik]

MC is "better" and more configurable than any Pre-Pro/AVR out there with pretty much all its functions

I don't know about "better", i haven't extensively tested it, but it certainly isn't more configurable. JRSS seems like a big black box to me, it doesn't allow me any fine-grained control about anything. All it does is "tell me your speaker layout, and i'll try to work my magic", with maybe 2-3 additional checkboxes. :p

[TheLion]

Well, JRSS is nothing else than a glorified Dolby PL 2x. Most Pre-Pros don't allow to configure these upmixing modes either - other than Music and Movie Mode.

But I don't want upmixing most of the time. It always changes the original mix. e.g. with 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing JRSS mixes content from the left surround channel to the left rear and (!) the right surround channel. This may result in a more "spacious" sound field but one that is different from the original mix/intention. Playing Stereo music with upmixing to 5.1/7.1 is an abstraction of the original content IMHO. I don't use it. Some like it though.

[TheLion]

mojave (once again...) got it exactly right. For any given physical speaker layout there generally is only one "logical way" for channel routing different source formats - even or especially without upmixing/JRSS. E.g. an 5.1 setup is selected - Mono is routed to the Center (or pseudo stereo with Matt automatic selection of music content), Stereo -> Stereo (with potential Bass Management in DSP Studio Room Correction/Convolution), 4.0 (let LAV Audio put it in a 5.1 container), 5.1 straight, 6.1 -> silent rear (clone rear for 7.1 setups), 7.1 - silent rears. If a 4.1 setup is selected (5.1 but without Center channel) channel routing always splits the source Center to Left/Right Front - because this is the only way to handle this format with the selected physical layout correctly. So all routing options are straight forward - with JRSS/upmixing disabled.   

Your post makes complete sense.   I also agree with your designation of "correct handling" being based on physical layout when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected.  Even when "No upmixing or downmixing" is selected, 6.1 can't logically go to a 7.1 system without going to both rears and mono can't logically go to a 7.1 system without being stereo or the center.

[TheLion]

17.0.173 (6/14/2012)

1. Changed: Mono handling using 'No upmixing or downmixing' uses pseudo-stereo for music and the center speaker for videos (other than music videos).


Thank you very much, Matt!

[JustinChase]

Justin,

I am not sure I understand your request.

Basically we both want the same - disabling JRSS upmixing with Media Center just routing any possible source channel layout "correctly" to our physical speaker layout. This should be a straight forward thing to do.

Sorry, I'm not sure what's confusing.  Hopefully this helps.

I almost never want any up-mixing done, and I think this is what you want also, but your posts are somewhat confusing to me, so I can't say for sure; but I'll assume you want the same thing.

I select "Source Number of Channels" for Channels and "Source bitdepth" for Bitdepth.  My understanding is that by doing this, the audio will not be modified (up or down mixed) in any way, and that the Channels sent to MC will be routed to the appropriate Speakers in my system, whether they exist or not.

JRSS (arguably quite well) mixes any input signal to output in the number of channels you specify in the Channels selection.  However, personally, I don't want 4.1 mixed to 5.1, nor do I want Stereo mixed to 5.1, etc.

MC currently has some options to specially deal with Stereo and Center channel, they are..

"For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" and "Move center to front L/R"

These are both important and valuable options, but they are only available if you use JRSS, which you can only use if you specify a specific number of Channels in your system.  Meaning, I can only take advantage of this if I select a number of channels, which I don't want to do for the reasons given above.

Now, your trouble comes in with Mono signals.

MC is hardcoded to split Mono into Stereo, because of the thread long ago discussing Audio only considerations.

Now, Matt has recently added the (excellent) change which sends mono in a Video signal to the center channel.

This is also hardcoded, and not optional.  It probably doesn't need to be optional, but what about the person that doesn't have a center channel?  What do they get?  I have no idea.

My suggestions are to allow the current special handling of Stereo and Center channel with "Source number of channels" selected.

This way, I can benefit from having a Stereo music track being mixed to include my subwoofer, which I currently cannot use, but would like to.  It would also allow someone without a center channel to split to their L/R fronts, but not do any other mixing.

In addition, to handle your request for Mono, I suggested these options also be added and allowed to be selected with "Source number of channels"

"Send mono to center" and "Expand mono to stereo"

This could/would remove the hard-coded, and unchangeable choices JRiver has made in how to handle these situations.  The defaults should be the current hard-coded options.

Some people might want their mono audio tracks to play from their center speaker, and not be split into stereo.  This is not an option for us currently.

Some people might want their mono video tracks to be split into stereo, and not just sent to the center channel.  This is not an option for us currently.

By adding these 2 options, and allowing all 4 options to be selected in conjunction with "Source number of channels", I think we can overcome all of the current shortcomings, and we can all get what I think we all want.

I don't see any circumstance where these options will take away anything from the current abilities, they will only enhance the current situation.  Also, since they all exist in one form or another already, I don't suspect it would be a big change to do as I'm suggesting.

I believe these options will give you exactly what you are looking to do.  If I'm mistaken, please explain to me the error, so I can understand, and perhaps come up with a further enhancement.

[mojave]

This way, I can benefit from having a Stereo music track being mixed to include my subwoofer, which I currently cannot use, but would like to.

I'm not sure why you don't use the actual number of channels you have (i.e. 5.1) and then set mixing to "No Upmixing or Downmixing." You still get no upmixing or downmixing, but can use Room Correction or Parametric EQ for a crossover for the subwoofer for all sources including 2.0.

[fitbrit]

For mono, next build:
Changed: When JRSS does center focused mixing (used for videos other than music videos), mono videos will output on the center speaker instead of as pseudo stereo.

I'd like to support JustinChase's options - I'd like the option to mix mono to left, right and centre, actually.

[JustinChase]

I'm not sure why you don't use the actual number of channels you have (i.e. 5.1) and then set mixing to "No Upmixing or Downmixing." You still get no upmixing or downmixing, but can use Room Correction or Parametric EQ for a crossover for the subwoofer for all sources including 2.0.

Because that doesn't give me the same amount of control as the simple changes I suggest.

Why not just agree that the changes are beneficial, and not find reasons to keep cobbling solutions together?

I think it would be much easier to select source number of channels, then check a box to get my subwoofer added to stereo.

I don't even know how to use room correction or parametric EQ to add a crossover, nor where to set it.

Is there some reason NOT to do as I've suggested?  It gives MUCH more control than the current situation, and takes away nothing.

[Matt]

mojave gave good advice.  If you want to do something more advanced, you can use Parametric Equalizer.

I don't even know how to use room correction or parametric EQ to add a crossover, nor where to set it.

You're asking for advanced new options, yet saying you don't know how to use the existing options.  Can you see how this might cause us some cognitive dissonance?

[JustinChase]

You're asking for advanced new options, yet saying you don't know how to use the existing options.  Can you see how this might cause us some cognitive dissonance?

I'm not sure how "advanced" this suggestion is.  The options already exist, I'm just asking them to be allowed to be used in conjunction with "source number of channels".  The other 2 options I am asking to be added already exist in the code, just not as options.

Even if I "learned how to use the existing options", it still would not provide the robustness of what I'm suggesting.  Nor is what exists today easy to use.  Nor will it solve the original request of handling mono.

I was trying to help improve MC by making what I think would be small changes that would add big benefit, be easy to understand and use, and not require me to learn what a parametric equalizer is.

If I want mono audio to play from my center channel, can I do that today?  If I want to play mono audio to my fronts and center, can I do that?  If I want to play mono video to my fronts, can I do that?  To my fronts and center?

I've lived this long without the benefits I'm suggesting, so I doubt I'll drop over dead now if they are not added

I fail to see the reason for the negativity regarding what would increase usability, and remove none, and take what I imagine is less than an hours work.

I will drop this now.  It's clear it's not going to happen.  It's not at all clear why; but that's none of my business I guess.

Thanks for at least reading

[TheLion]

Justin,

I still don't quite understand the problem you are seeing. You want 1:1 channel routing for all possible formats to your 5.1 setup - without any upmixing. That's exactly what I needed and from build 173 this is possible now.

Forget about the "Source Number of Channels" option in Media Center. It doesn't make any sense to me (as mentioned before) because the Channels option should be set to your physical speaker layout (it is NOT the number of output channels as described in Media Center - this is only the case when you use JRSS).

So set Channel to 5.1, "No upmixing or downmixing" and use LAV Audio with standard settings + the 6.1->7.1 option enabled. Now each and every source format (from Mono to 7.1 and everything in between) is correctly routed to your 5.1 setup - without any unwanted processing/upmixing. For bass management (e.g. 2."1") use Room Correction, PEQ or Convolution.

If you want Mono to be played in the Fronts + Center use PEQ to simply copy the input channel accordingly.

Voila!

[JustinChase]

Forget about the "Source Number of Channels" option in Media Center. It doesn't make any sense to me (as mentioned before) because the Channels option should be set to your physical speaker layout (it is NOT the number of output channels as described in Media Center - this is only the case when you use JRSS).

Then I suggest this should be fixed. It makes no sense to me to have 2 options that sort of do the same thing, but aren't clear what they do.  Why offer me "Source number of channels" if I really should be picking a number of channels?  And, by the same token, why offer me to select a number of channels, but then let me do no upmixing?  They seem to have the same effect, with the added benefit of confusion sprinkled on top.

Picking a number of channels only really makes sense to me if I want to force the use of them all the time, IF there is an option not to do so.  If there was no "source number of channels" option, I would assume picking my channel layout was good and necessary.

Picking "Source number of channels" should just do that.  If this option didn't exist, my suggestion would just change to allow the options I've described along with picking my channel layout, and selecting no upmixing; and this isn't possible now either.

Maybe some more time/effort needs to be spent here to make this area a bit more clear.  I think it's a BIG expectation to think that most/all users will know to use a parametric equalizer to force stereo into 2.1; especially when there is a perfectly clear label and checkbox that indicates it will do just that.

Again, I don't really care at this point, nor does it seem that JRiver intends to make any changes here, so I'm really done with this topic, unless JRiver indicates change is possible, then I'm happy to help contribute.

My suggestions were much more of the "I think there is area for improvement, and here's how" than "I need this changed."

[mojave]

Then I suggest this should be fixed. It makes no sense to me to have 2 options that sort of do the same thing, but aren't clear what they do.  Why offer me "Source number of channels" if I really should be picking a number of channels?  And, by the same token, why offer me to select a number of channels, but then let me do no upmixing?  They seem to have the same effect, with the added benefit of confusion sprinkled on top.

JRiver's setup makes complete sense to me, but that is because I have done a lot of implementations both directly to amplifiers and with receivers. Perhaps if I explain a little more it might make more sense.

The main reason for having "Source number of channels" is because that setting must be used for output to most receivers if you want the receiver to do the upmixing. If you are sending PCM over HDMI then I think you need to use 5.1 or 7.1, but the receiver can still upmix the actual channels being used.

Here is what you need to ask?
Channels = Is JRiver or the receiver going to handle upmixing, speaker setup, and bass managment? If the answer is "receiver," then you use "Source number of channels." Otherwise, you usually need to select the number of physical channels you have for output.

Mixing = Do I want upmixing and if so, do I want JRiver or the receiver to upmix? If you don't want upmixing or want it done by the receiver, then you select "No upmixing or downmixing." Otherwise, you select "JRSS."

There are primarily five options for users:

• 1.  Don't upmix, but let JRiver handle speaker setup and bass managment
• 2.  Let JRiver upmix and handle speaker setup and bass management
• 3.  Let JRiver upmix and let the receiver handle speaker setup and bass management
• 4.  Let the receiver upmix (or not) and handle speaker setup and bass management
• 5.  Let JRiver upmix and handle bass managment and some speaker setup and then let the receiver handle more speaker setup and more upmixing (this is used for height channels)

Speaker setup = Setting the proper distance and gain for each speaker
Bass Management = Setting whether speakers are large/small and setting the crossover frequency. Frequencies below the crossover are sent to the subwoofer and the channel is created if it doesn't already exist. If it does exist, then bass from other speakers is routed to the subwoofer channel.

1.  If you don't want to upmix, but want JRiver to handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to the number of physical channels you have available
• You set Mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing."
• You use Room Correction to handle speaker setup and bass managment (this method is easy and is more intuitive than how a receiver does it). You can even add a subwoofer channel for a stereo source.

2.  If you want JRiver to upmix and handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to the number of physical channels you have available
• You set Mixing to "JRSS"
• You use JRSS to mix a bass channel for stereo sources using the Subwoofer setting in Output Format (mains are still fullrange) and use Room Correction for speaker setup for all sources and bass managent for sources that already include a subwoofer
• You set the Subwoofer to "Silent (use Room Correction to redirect bass to subwoofer) and then you use Room Correction to handle speaker setup and bass management for music and movies

3.  If you want JRiver to upmix and let the receiver handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to the the number of physical channels you have available
• You set Mixing to "JRSS"
• You use the receiver for speaker setup and bass management

4.  If you want the receiver to upmix (or not) and handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to "Source number of Channels"
• You set Mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing"
• You use the receiver to upmix and handle bass management
• You set Mixing to "JRSS"

5.   If you want to let JRiver upmix  and handle bass managment and some speaker setup and then let the receiver handle more speaker setup and more upmixing

• You set Channels to the number of physical channels you have available
• You set the Subwoofer to "Silent (use Room Correction to redirect bass to subwoofer) and then you use Room Correction to handle speaker setup and bass management for music and movies
• You set the receiver to 9 or 11 channel mode for heights and it will upmix the height channels.

The Parametric Equalizer DSP is used for advanced bass routing, channel mixing, and parametric EQ.

[JimH]

Mojave,
Thanks very much for taking time to describe this.  I'd like to copy this to the wiki.  What should the title be?  "Mixing"?

Jim

[mojave]

You should probably put most of it under "Mixing." I see that there is a page for Output Format, but it was last updated in 2006. It's description of Channels is incorrect.

[JimH]

You should probably put most of it under "Mixing."

Done.  Thanks again.

[JustinChase]

This is excellent information mojave, thanks for compiling.

I have a question or clarification request though (and 2 small corrections to the information)...

1.  If you don't want to upmix, but want JRiver to handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to the number of physical channels you have available
• You set Mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing."
• You use Room Correction to handle speaker setup and bass managment (this method is easy and is more intuitive than how a receiver does it). You can even add a subwoofer channel for a stereo source.

OR

• You do your mixing with the receiver

4.  If you want the receiver to upmix (or not) and handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to "Source number of Channels"
• You set Mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing"  (not available with "Source number of Channels")
• You use the receiver to upmix and handle bass management
• You set Mixing to "JRSS"  (not available with "Source number of Channels")

In option 4, if you set to "Source number of channels", you cannot change the option for "No upmixing or downmixing", nor can you set mixing to "JRSS".  You cannot make any changes or choices if you set "Source number of channels"

Therefore, aren't these basically the same thing, in actual effect?

Basically, you don't want JRiver to upmix in either case.  You may or may not want JRiver to handle bass management, and/or for the receiver to handle bass management. But if you don't add any other sound management/processing to "xx channels" and "no upmixing" you get the exact same thing as "Source number of channels", so why have the "Source number of channels" option at all?  It serves no unique purpose that isn't already handled by the other options, as you've explained it.

So, if we agree that "Source number of channels" really adds nothing to the party, and is therefore redundant, wouldn't it be best to eliminate the option?

Leaving us to only select our number of channels, then to either select "no mixing" if we don't want do to any mixing, or if we want the receiver to do the mixing.  Or we can select JRSS if we do want mixing done by JRiver.

Following along with this, the options I suggested would still increase user control, and will not take away anything currently available, and I would then argue that they could/should be available if we select "xx channels" and "no upmixing", since this is exactly the same thing as "Source number of channels", which is where I originally suggested they be allowed/added.

Am I still missing something, or does this now make more sense?

[mojave]

I was cutting and pasting and added the last line to number 4. I also forgot that "No upmixing . . " is greyed out.    It should just read:

4.  If you want the receiver to upmix (or not) and handle speaker setup and bass management, then . . .

• You set Channels to "Source number of Channels"
• You use the receiver to upmix and handle bass management

So, if we agree that "Source number of channels" really adds nothing to the party, and is therefore redundant, wouldn't it be best to eliminate the option?

"Source number of channels" is vitally important and determines if JRiver or the Receiver upmixes. It isn't redundant at all. The option has to be there in order to send 2.0 as 2.0, 5.1 as 5.1, and 7.1 as 7.1 to a receiver without manually making changes. The option is there for those that wan't the exact source number of channels to go to their receiver that are in the source.

Let's say I want my receiver to upmix.
If I set Channels to 5.1 and Mixing to "No upmixing or Downmixing" and have a stereo source, the receiver still thinks it is getting a 5.1 source even thought the other channels are silent. It is getting 6 channels with only sound is in the L/R channels. It won't do any upmixing. It also probably won't engage Direct or Pure Audio modes since these require a stereo signal. You also can't have separate settings on the receiver now for stereo and multi-channel because it thinks the signal is multichannel.

You can't eliminate "Source number of channels" and still have the receiver do the mixing!

I think the part that might be confusing to you is that "No upmixing or Downmixing" is still creating the number of channels you have set in Channels, but doesn't mix info to these the extra channels.

Channels is the number of output channels. It can be a set number (2.0, 5.1. 7.1, etc) or variable depending on source (Source number of channels). If the source number of channels is less than the output channels, additional silent channels are added.

Mixing is whether the source number of channels is upmixed/downmixed to the output number of channels you have set in Channels




[/list]

[JustinChase]

"Source number of channels" is vitally important and determines if JRiver or the Receiver upmixes. It isn't redundant at all. The option has to be there in order to send 2.0 as 2.0, 5.1 as 5.1, and 7.1 as 7.1 to a receiver without manually making changes. The option is there for those that want the exact source number of channels to go to their receiver that are in the source.

Let's say I want my receiver to upmix.
If I set Channels to 5.1 and Mixing to "No upmixing or Downmixing" and have a stereo source, the receiver still thinks it is getting a 5.1 source even thought the other channels are silent. It is getting 6 channels with only sound is in the L/R channels. It won't do any upmixing. It also probably won't engage Direct or Pure Audio modes since these require a stereo signal. You also can't have separate settings on the receiver now for stereo and multi-channel because it thinks the signal is multichannel.

You can't eliminate "Source number of channels" and still have the receiver do the mixing!

I think the part that might be confusing to you is that "No upmixing or Downmixing" is still creating the number of channels you have set in Channels, but doesn't mix info to these the extra channels.

Channels is the number of output channels. It can be a set number (2.0, 5.1. 7.1, etc) or variable depending on source (Source number of channels). If the source number of channels is less than the output channels, additional silent channels are added.

Mixing is whether the source number of channels is upmixed/downmixed to the output number of channels you have set in Channels

Thank you for sticking with me to help me (and hopefully others) understand, that makes more sense now, as far as what is happening; but not why it's doing it this way. 

If I understand correctly now; selecting "Source number of channels", MC will not add any 'silent' channels, and will just send out whatever the input number of channels is on to the receiver/amplifier(s), unchanged.

If I set "5.1 channels" (since that's what my system has) and I select "No mixing" MC will send whatever the input number of channels actually is to my receiver, and add 'silent' channels to fill-in the 'missing' channels, so that my receiver will receive 5.1 channels, no matter the actual number of input channels.

Why would someone want to do this?  Why would you want to send 'silent' channels to your receiver?

I think I now understand why "Source number of channels" exists, but I don't understand the 'benefit' of doing it this way.

It seems that selecting the appropriate number of channels (5.1 for me) and "No mixing" should act the way "Source number of channels" acts currently, and would not add empty channels, since I don't want any mixing done, and adding stuff feels like 'mixing' to me.

Of course, if there is a reason to add empty channels, the option/choice needs to exist, I just can't think of any reason someone would need/want to do this.  Like you said, if I send 'silent' channels, the receiver can't/won't upmix, so what is the benefit of sending 'silent' channels?  The only reason I can think of is to prevent the receiver from upmixing, but couldn't you just set the receiver to not upmix, instead of trying to prevent it with MC?

It feels like "Channels" should be used to tell MC how many speakers can be used in a system, and "Mixing" should be used to determine if any changes should be made to the source, based on what I enter in Channels.  "No mixing" should leave the source alone.  JRSS should work it's magic.  And, if you really want to add 'silent' channels, maybe that should be a 3rd choice ("Fill empty channels with silence"), but in the same drop-down as "No mixing" and JRSS; and the "Source number of channels" should just be eliminated.

Also, the fact that "Channels" contains options for 2 channel (inside a 4.0 container), (inside a 5.1 container), etc indicates this is the way to add silent channels to your output.  Not the way it seems to work now.

As it is, it's overly complicated, IMO. However, your explanation certainly helps.  I just don't know how many people will find this information when they are trying to configure this.  Maybe a link to the Wiki in the DSP dialog/setup box will be helpful.

[mojave]

Why would someone want to do this?  Why would you want to send 'silent' channels to your receiver?

You wouldn't. That is why "Source number of channels" is an option. 

I think I now understand why "Source number of channels" exists, but I don't understand the 'benefit' of doing it this way. It seems that selecting the appropriate number of channels (5.1 for me) and "No mixing" should act the way "Source number of channels" acts currently, and would not add empty channels, since I don't want any mixing done, and adding stuff feels like 'mixing' to me.

The empty channels are required for those using bass management, active crossovers, convolution, VST plugins and other setups beyond just JRSS and upmixing. I don't always upmix, but I always use my subwoofer(s) and need the empty channels for bass management.

You say you don't even want empty channels, but earlier you wished you could use your subwoofer with stereo sources. You can't have it both ways. 

Also, the fact that "Channels" contains options for 2 channel (inside a 4.0 container), (inside a 5.1 container), etc indicates this is the way to add silent channels to your output.  Not the way it seems to work now.

Those serve different purposes. For example, I have a 7.1 system and usually use 7.1 as my number of channels. In a 7.1 Blu-ray, channels 7 & 8 are mapped to the side surrounds. Sometimes, if want to listen to a 5.1 concert DVD, I might want to set my system to 5.1. This source uses channels 5 & 6 as the side surrounds. Rather than rewiring my system, I just select "5.1 channels (inside a 7.1 container)". Now the surround info stays mapped to the side channels like it is supposed to instead of going to the rear channels. The other "inside a container" options are there to provide flexibility with various sources and various output devices. Just because you have a "simple" system doesn't mean these aren't valuable options for others. They were added because the regular output options didn't provide the right output and necessary silent channels.

Maybe a link to the Wiki in the DSP dialog/setup box will be helpful.

I agree and think hyperlinks within JRiver would be very helpful.

So, when are you going to start using the bass management in the Room Correction DSP so you can put one of those empty channels to good use with your subwoofer? 

[JustinChase]

You wouldn't. That is why "Source number of channels" is an option. 

You say you don't even want empty channels, but earlier you wished you could use your subwoofer with stereo sources. You can't have it both ways. 

Now I'm confused again.  How is using a subwoofer with stereo related to sending 'silent' channels to my receiver?  I don't want it both ways, but it seems with the current functionality, I need it both ways; but I don't really know why.

If I have a stereo source, and MC isn't adding 'silent' channels, but instead, just adds the subwoofer information, what is the benefit/use of 'silent' channels?  Why do I need these silent channels?

In other words, it seems that you agree you don't need/want to send 'silent' channels to the receiver, so why would selecting 5.1 with "no mixing" add 'silent' channels?  Why not just route the correct channels to the 5.1, and if there are fewer or 'missing' channels, don't add anything to them?  i.e. why doesn't selecting channels  and "no mixing" act like "source number of channels" does now?  Why is it adding extra channels.  To me, that's 'mixing', and I've already selected "no mixing".  You said that selecting channels, even with "no mixing" causes all 'missing' channels to have silence.  Then you said it's not necessary or wanted.  Why do it this way, if it isn't wanted?

If I set Channels to 5.1 and Mixing to "No upmixing or Downmixing" and have a stereo source, the receiver still thinks it is getting a 5.1 source even thought the other channels are silent. It is getting 6 channels with only sound is in the L/R channels. It won't do any upmixing.

This still confuses me.  Why send 5.1 channels if the source is less than that, and I select "no mixing"?  Setting 5.1 channels should only tell MC the maximum possible/preferred speaker layout I have.  If there aren't that many channels in the input, and I select "no mixing", MC should just send the actual number of channels; like I think it does when I select "Source number of channels".  The fact that MC will send 6 channels to the receiver when a source is 2 or 4 channel, and I've selected "no mixing" is 'wrong' to me.  It's also not intuitive, nor explained, and I don't think I'm the only one that expects different behavior than what we're getting.

I agree that it's 'workable' if you fully understand what's happening, but it just seems it could be much more simple.  2 options that mostly do the same thing, but one is mixing when I say "no mixing" is not ideal, IMO.

So, when are you going to start using the bass management in the Room Correction DSP so you can put one of those empty channels to good use with your subwoofer? 

Probably once I really think I understand this.  Or, better yet, once Matt lets me click the utterly simple "Upmix stereo to 2.1 only" box with "no mixing" selected

[mojave]

Let's peak behind the curtain a little.
Channels are numbered 1-8 out the back of a audio device or receiver. Most of today's devices look like this:

Channel 1 = Left
Channel 2 = Right
Channel 3 = Center
Channel 4 = Subwoofer\LFE
Channel 5 = Rear Left Surround
Channel 6 = Rear Right Surround
Channel 7 = Side Left Surround
Channel 8 = Side Right Surround

These channel designations are used by output modes such as ASIO or WASAPI and are also used by decoders such as Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS-HD (actually the decoders use 0-7, but that is more confusing). Sometimes channels 5 & 6 are used for side surrounds instead the rear surrounds.

If you have a stereo signal, but want to use a subwoofer, then you need a format that uses channel 4. Only 5.1 and 7.1 use channel 4 for the subwoofer, so JRiver has to switch to a 5.1 or 7.1 format and then route the bass to channel 4. If it used channel 3, people would have the bass coming out their center speaker. JRiver has to stay consistent with all the other devices and decoders.

The correct practice is to let either the receiver or JRiver know how many channels you are using in your system. If you are going to let the receiver know, then you sent Channels to "Source number of channels." If you are going to let JRiver know, then you set the actual number of channels. You have to let one of them know so it knows how to handle everything from stereo to 7.1.

Once you have entered your total channels, it (the receiver or JRiver) knows what speaker you have connected to each channel. Now that the total number of speakers is known, all other formats can be routed correctly to those channels.

The next thing you do is tell the receiver or JRiver what you want to happen to source channels. Do you want them sent exactly as they are encoded or do you want to upmix?  

Now I'm confused again.  How is using a subwoofer with stereo related to sending 'silent' channels to my receiver?  I don't want it both ways, but it seems with the current functionality, I need it both ways; but I don't really know why.

If you want to use your receiver to mix the subwoofer channel, then you want to select "Source number of channels" and the Mixing selection becomes a moot point (i.e. not available). If you want to have JRiver mix a subwoofer, it needs a format that has channel 4 as the subwoofer channel. Only 5.1 and 7.1 formats use channel 4 as the subwoofer. Therefore, JRiver needs to add silent channels just so it can use channel 4.

If I have a stereo source, and MC isn't adding 'silent' channels, but instead, just adds the subwoofer information, what is the benefit/use of 'silent' channels?  Why do I need these silent channels?

It needs the silent channels so it can place the subwoofer on channel 4. It also can't just add channel 3 and use it as the subwoofer or add channel 3 and 4, but it need to make it 5.1 or 7.1 because only these formats use channel 4 as the subwoofer.

In other words, it seems that you agree you don't need/want to send 'silent' channels to the receiver, so why would selecting 5.1 with "no mixing" add 'silent' channels?

So it can be consistent with channel output for all formats. Otherwise you would need to rewire your system for various channel outputs.

Setting 5.1 channels should only tell MC the maximum possible/preferred speaker layout I have.  If there aren't that many channels in the input, and I select "no mixing", MC should just send the actual number of channels; like I think it does when I select "Source number of channels".  The fact that MC will send 6 channels to the receiver when a source is 2 or 4 channel, and I've selected "no mixing" is 'wrong' to me.  It's also not intuitive, nor explained, and I don't think I'm the only one that expects different behavior than what we're getting.

Now that you understand channel layout (hopefully  ) you see that JRiver needs your maximum number of channels and always should sent output in those channels with other channels silent so that the correct info is always routed to the correct speaker.

Let me provide a post office illustration. At a small town post office there are 100 boxes. Each person in town is assigned a box. One day 30 pieces of mail come in for 30 residents. If PO Box 93 is always Mr. Black, then the postmaster can easily put the mail in his box. If no mail comes for box 5, then it is left empty. What if the post office decided to fill the boxes starting with box 1? Then they would just take the 30 pieces of mail, sort them by PO #, but fill boxes 1-30. Mr. Black might get his mail in box 27 today, but box 30 tomorrow. That would be confusing.

JRiver wants to know how many "boxes" or channels you have. It then knows that it should always route the center to channel 3, the left rear to channel 5, and the subwoofer to channel 4. Without adding the silent channels it is like stuffing mailboxes sequentially always starting with #1.

Or, better yet, once Matt lets me click the utterly simple "Upmix stereo to 2.1 only" box with "no mixing" selected

Talk about confusing and contradicting . . .  

[JustinChase]

Okay, that all makes sense.

If I select "source number of channels", MC won't add any silent channels, and won't change anything from the input to the output.  It just forwards whatever input channels it receives to the receiver, and my receiver can upmix.  Do I have this correct?

If so, and my source is 4.1 channels, i.e., has no center channel, and MC just forwards that along, what does the receiver do?  It only receives 5 channels, with no center channel.  How does my receiver know which are the 5 channels?  How does it know to send the .1 to the subwoofer, and not the center, for example?  You said MC won't add the silent channels with "source number of channels", so nothing is getting 'filled in' to make up the gap in this case.

Assuming this does work properly, how is this different from sending the same information to the receiver in the same way if I have selected 5.1 channels, instead of "source number of channels"?  I understand that MC is currently doing something differently with these 2 different selections, but if MC can properly send 4.1 or 4.0 or 2.0 to my receiver without having to wrap it in a 5.1 or 7.1 container with "source number of channels", why couldn't it send the same information the same way with 5.1 and "no mixing" selected?

Please understand I'm not just trying to argue, I'm really trying to understand what is actually happening, because I really do think it could be simplified.  I really appreciate you taking the time to thoroughly explain all this, it's very helpful!!  Thanks again.

BTW, simply for accuracy sake, for anyone following along, or finding this in a search later, did you mean...

Channel 1 = Left
Channel 2 = Right
Channel 3 = Surround  Center?
Channel 4 = Subwoofer\LFE
Channel 5 = Rear Left Surround
Channel 6 = Rear Right Surround
Channel 7 = Side Left Surround
Channel 8 = Side Right Surround

[mojave]

Okay, that all makes sense.

If I select "source number of channels", MC won't add any silent channels, and won't change anything from the input to the output.  It just forwards whatever input channels it receives to the receiver, and my receiver can upmix.  Do I have this correct?

Yes!

If so, and my source is 4.1 channels, i.e., has no center channel, and MC just forwards that along, what does the receiver do?  It only receives 5 channels, with no center channel.  How does my receiver know which are the 5 channels?  How does it know to send the .1 to the subwoofer, and not the center, for example?  You said MC won't add the silent channels with "source number of channels", so nothing is getting 'filled in' to make up the gap in this case.

There isn't a 4.1 source. If you can find one, it is probably actually 5.1 with the center channel silent. It is mixed according to standards so that it is decoded and routed properly. In other words, 4.1 is always mixed in a 5.1 or 7.1 container. 4.0 could be mixed in a 4.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 container. If the 4.0 is Left, Right, Center, and Sub then it could be in anyone of the three and still be played properly since all three use the same channel order for the first 4 channels. If it is supposed to be Left, Right, Surround Left, and Surround Right, then it will be mixed in a 5.1 or 7.1 container with the other channels silent.

Assuming this does work properly, how is this different from sending the same information to the receiver in the same way if I have selected 5.1 channels, instead of "source number of channels"?  I understand that MC is currently doing something differently with these 2 different selections, but if MC can properly send 4.1 or 4.0 or 2.0 to my receiver without having to wrap it in a 5.1 or 7.1 container with "source number of channels", why couldn't it send the same information the same way with 5.1 and "no mixing" selected?

JRiver doesn't know you are sending it to a receiver. Also, some people still want to send 5.1 channels to a receiver with "no mixing" even if the source is 2.0. The reason is because they are using JRiver's DSP for active crossovers, room correction, convolution, etc. as I have already mentioned.

Person A has a receiver with a 5.1 speaker system. He want "Source number of channels" because his receiver will do the mixing. He selects that option and Mixing is greyed out. He only gets 2 channels if his source is stereo.

Person B has a stereo system and a subwoofer. He listens to 80% music. He plans to add some surround speakers when his wife quits spending all the money. His X-Box and Blu-ray player are connected to the system and he downmixes to stereo and subwoofer. He connects his sub to the sub output on his receiver and doesn't even know it is channel 4. He likes the bass management in JRiver and uses it for his subwoofer. He doesn't know that JRiver is also using channel 4 for the subwoofer so it gets routed properly when the signal goes to his receiver. He sets Channels to 5.1 and mixing to "No mixing . . ." He now can use Room Correction and send the bass info from stereo sources to the subwoofer. 

If Person A set Channels and Mixing and "Source number of channel" wasn't an option, he would select 5.1 and No Mixing. He needs 5.1 so movies play properly.

Person B would also need to select 5.1 and No Mixing. He needs 5.1 so he can move the bass frequencies to his subwoofer. He isn't mixing, just moving. He also needs 5.1 for the DVD's that he plays from his HTPC. He wants his receiver to downmix.

Both of these people have different needs and selecting 5.1 and No Mixing  (since "source number of channels" wouldn't be available) has to work differently for each person depending on whether they want silent channels or not. The first person selected 5.1, but really only wants 2.0 with stereo sources. The second person selected 5.1 and actually wants 5.1 with stereo sources. Since neither Matt, Jim, or anybody else at JRiver knows what the needs are of all the users, then you have to be flexible enough to easily accommodate all setups. The current system does that.

BTW, simply for accuracy sake, for anyone following along, or finding this in a search later, did you mean...

Thanks. I fixed it.

[JustinChase]

There isn't a 4.1 source. If you can find one, it is probably actually 5.1 with the center channel silent. It is mixed according to standards so that it is decoded and routed properly. In other words, 4.1 is always mixed in a 5.1 or 7.1 container.

I'm still digesting your latest, so it might be a bit before/if I respond, but I wanted to post this in the meantime.  I'll have to test more to verify exactly where the sound plays, but I think it does play correctly, using "Source number of channels", which I think you're saying isn't possible...

Code: [Select]

General
Complete name                            : M:\Pink Floyd - The Dark Side Of The Moon DVDA - 05 - The Great Gig in the Sky - Psychedelic Rock.flac
Format                                   : FLAC
Format/Info                              : Free Lossless Audio Codec
File size                                : 182 MiB
Duration                                 : 4mn 51s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 5 251 Kbps
Album                                    : The Dark Side Of The Moon
Track name                               : The Great Gig in the Sky
Track name/Position                      : 5
Performer                                : Pink Floyd
Genre                                    : Psychedelic
BPM                                      : 108
Cover                                    : Yes
Cover type                               : Cover (front)
Cover MIME                               : image/jpeg
          Comment                                  : 4.1 Channel DVDA
TOOL NAME                                : Media Center
TOOL VERSION                             : 16.0.145
INTENSITY                                : 1

Audio
Format                                   : FLAC
Format/Info                              : Free Lossless Audio Codec
Duration                                 : 4mn 51s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 5 250 Kbps
          Channel(s)                               : 5 channels
Sampling rate                            : 96.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Replay gain                              : -3.69 dB
Replay gain peak                         : 0.915800
Stream size                              : 182 MiB (100%)
Writing library                          : libFLAC 1.2.1 (UTC 2007-09-17)


[mojave]

when i try to play 4.1 channel FLAC files, it says it can't play 96khz, 24 bit 5 channel files, but offers to play 2 channel instead.

is this just that 4.1 channel (Dark side of the Moon DVDA) is "weird" and confuses MC, or is this just a multi-channel flac problem?

Did you get this working in JRiver?

Where did you get the file information you posted in the last post?

[dean70]

If I can just chime in for a sec..

One issue I have found when using 7.1 channel setting (more an issue with the receiver) rather than 'Source number of channels' is that it lights up all 7 channels on the receiver (as it should), but in the case when playing back 2 channel flacs encoded at 24/192, the receiver barfs at this format and JRiver refuses to play. It can only handle 24/192 up to 5 channels.

As a result, separate zones need to be created to cater for this: 1 as "Source number of channels" and one as 7.1 channel (opt with 7.1 upmix) or alternativly map the 192000 sample format to 96000.

There might be a more graceful way to workaround receiver limitations?


Just a point on the DSOM dvda 4.1 as flac - I have this title and had to edit the flac file in Audacity to insert a silent center channel. FLAC does not support 4.1 format:

http://flac.sourceforge.net/format.html