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[nuke2000]

Hi there.

Back from a long time away. I have recently built a new HTPC to replace my very large and heavy older htpc that ran mc18 on a core2 duo with 2gb ram with a dedicated gpu.

I now have a  Intel Core i5 4670 3.40GHz on a Gigabyte GA-H87N-WIFI with 8gb ram and an intel ssd running win7 x64. I am using the integrated gpu.

My issue is with my new system. I am trailing jr mc19 and under theatre view the cover views are very jerky. This has been posted about on interact in relation to mc18 but it seems the issue persists. I would have thought that my hardware was more than adequate?  I am therefore waiting for a response before I consider upgrading my licence from 18 to 19.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

[JimH]

Please install this build:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87902.0

[nuke2000]

Hi Jim. Tried the suggested version but unfortunately no difference. Any ideas? Just to let you know the jerkiness is evident both with movie covers and pictures and is the same whether files are local or network.

[JimH]

Try updating your video driver. 

[nuke2000]

I am on latest driver, first thing I tried. Anyone else having issues with mc19 and haswell integrated gpu?

[Blaine78]

are you using Logitech setpoint drivers for your mouse/keyboard by chance?

[nuke2000]

Not using Logitech drivers. I have tried a number of versions of graphics drivers (including latest beta) to no avail. Any more ideas anyone?

I have tried out mc19 on another pc with an amd integrated gpu. This runs as smooth as silk although the amd gpu is somewhat inferior to my htpc's intel hd4600 gpu. An issue specifically related to intel hd4600 graphics perhaps? Perhaps a setting in my mobo bios I have overlooked? Please assist if you can

Thank you

edit - spotted a post in mc18 section http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81134.0

This is the exact issue I am having and as in another post on the issue in mc18, version 18.0.193 seems to be ok (although not quite as smooth as mc 19 on my amd rig), subsequent 18 versions and 19 versions all exhibit the jerky theatre view scrolling issues. Hope this is of use when attempting to track down the issue

Yikes, mc Is running smooth on my win8 tablet - what on earth!

Ideas please

[AndrewFG]

are you using Logitech setpoint drivers for your mouse/keyboard by chance?

Is there a particular reason why you ask this question? (It is not easy to imagine how mouse/keyboard drivers might have an impact on the video output...)

[nuke2000]

Hi there.

Right, have changed my mboard to a Asus Z87I-Pro as the gigabyte turned out to be a lemon. Unfortunately though the issue remains. As all other software is running really well and mc19 performs ok on my atom win8 tablet, I can only assume mc19 is having issues specifically with the integrated graphics on the core i5

Please assist

Thank you

[RoderickGI]

Are you using Red October Standard or HQ? I tried RO HQ on my i5 3570K, HD4000 iGPU, and it wasn't really up to it. I didn't notice any jerkiness on images though. But, try RO Standard.

Also look at your GPU utilisation with one of the software utilities that show it, and see if the GPU is being heavily loaded when MC runs. Mine looked fine on RO HQ at about 80% load for movies, but then it peaked at 100% every now and then, which was of course when I saw issues watching movies.

[nuke2000]

Hi and thanks for trying to help. Just to be clear, the jerkiness is not when playing movies, everything including Blu-ray rips are just fine, this is specifically with the theatreview menus when displaying cover art. It is especially evident on the 3d views. They stutter especially when coming into focus.

Thank you

Are you using Red October Standard or HQ? I tried RO HQ on my i5 3570K, HD4000 iGPU, and it wasn't really up to it. I didn't notice any jerkiness on images though. But, try RO Standard.

Also look at your GPU utilisation with one of the software utilities that show it, and see if the GPU is being heavily loaded when MC runs. Mine looked fine on RO HQ at about 80% load for movies, but then it peaked at 100% every now and then, which was of course when I saw issues watching movies.

[jmone]

Have you had a look at the options under Tools --> Options --> General --> Video Card --> Hardware accelerate graphics (do any changes here make a difference)?

[jmone]

Another setting to check is Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> Frame Rate (check it is set to your default monitors refresh rate).

[nuke2000]

Hi there

I have tried the 3 default options under hardware accelerate video and would say the difference is negligible

Thank you for trying to get to the bottom of the issue

[jmone]

I'm not a fan of this but also try enabling:

Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> Use fullscreen exclusive mode for drawing

[nuke2000]

I have tried this also and again unfortunately it makes no difference. Is there an issue specific to core i5 haswell cpu's?

I'm not a fan of this but also try enabling:

Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> Use fullscreen exclusive mode for drawing

[jmone]

I'm scratching me head.  I had seen this when using the Microsoft WHQL drivers but once the latest ones from Intel were installed it was fine (and this is on a lowly N2820).

[nuke2000]

Thanks for trying to assist. I have done some swapping out of components from a system that works well with mc19. I can report that all other system components are perfectly ok as tested on my main pc, so I have isolated the issue to the corei5 haswell. I do have another i5 haswell system at work so will install mc19 on that tomorrow to see if the problem is unique to my htpc. Will report back.

Thanks again

I'm scratching me head.  I had seen this when using the Microsoft WHQL drivers but once the latest ones from Intel were installed it was fine (and this is on a lowly N2820).

[Hendrik]

Did you turn Windows Aero off, by switching to a different Skin, maybe? Only the Glass skin enables Aero on Windows 7.
It could be related, if you did.

[RoderickGI]

Okay, so it is not happening for movies. But it may still pay to look at the GPU load when the Theatreview menus are displaying cover art. You may be able to see a blip in load that, which could help isolate the cause. Also look at Disk and CPU load in the Windows Resource Monitor for anything unusual when the problem is occurring. Wouldn't hurt to look in the Event Viewer as well. Maybe there is a problem happening in the background that generates a warning or error.

Otherwise I would be searching for more generic problems with new Haswell HD4600 iGPU. There was a problem with the early shipments of the Haswell wasn't there? It didn't affect me, so I didn't look into details. Worth a search.

[nuke2000]

Nope. Aero is on but thanks for the post

Did you turn Windows Aero off, by switching to a different Skin, maybe? Only the Glass skin enables Aero on Windows 7.
It could be related, if you did.

[nuke2000]

Hi there

Nothing untoward regarding gpu load. Disk load seems rather strange however although I am not accustomed to how it should look.

I can report however that the other haswell i5 system at my work exhibits exactly the same behaviour. My cpu was purchased less than 2 weeks ago, the works cpu around 4 months ago

Thanks for trying to assist

Okay, so it is not happening for movies. But it may still pay to look at the GPU load when the Theatreview menus are displaying cover art. You may be able to see a blip in load that, which could help isolate the cause. Also look at Disk and CPU load in the Windows Resource Monitor for anything unusual when the problem is occurring. Wouldn't hurt to look in the Event Viewer as well. Maybe there is a problem happening in the background that generates a warning or error.

Otherwise I would be searching for more generic problems with new Haswell HD4600 iGPU. There was a problem with the early shipments of the Haswell wasn't there? It didn't affect me, so I didn't look into details. Worth a search.

[FelixM]

Hi all.
I have the same problem.
In Theater View, 3D List Style. If i left-click and drag the covers, they scrolls very smoothly. But if i scroll by left and right arrows (in the keyboard or in the remote as it is the same), it scrolls jerky.
In Standard View - 3D Albums it scrolls smoothly with the mouse and with the remote.
It is the same in my two Win7 PC´s, one with Intel HD 4600 and the other with Intel HD 3000.

This is my first post in the forum, so sorry for my English.
This is the best Media Center with the best forum. I have learned a lot reading this forum.
Thanks to all. 

[nuke2000]

Hi Felix

What are you apologising for regarding your English, it's perfect.

Thanks for posting, it's good to know i'm not alone with this problem. As you have the issue on 2 pc's with intel igpu's and I have the issue on 2 ps's with intel igpu's I hope jriver will look into it further.

We are  both agreed that jriver is the best Media Centre and you are right that the forum and all at jriver offer pretty great support.  Just need to get this issue sorted before I consider the upgrade to mc19.

Cheers

Hi all.
I have the same problem.
In Theater View, 3D List Style. If i left-click and drag the covers, they scrolls very smoothly. But if i scroll by left and right arrows (in the keyboard or in the remote as it is the same), it scrolls jerky.
In Standard View - 3D Albums it scrolls smoothly with the mouse and with the remote.
It is the same in my two Win7 PC´s, one with Intel HD 4600 and the other with Intel HD 3000.

This is my first post in the forum, so sorry for my English.
This is the best Media Center with the best forum. I have learned a lot reading this forum.
Thanks to all.  

[FelixM]

Hi:

I have tried this solutions suggested in the forum and discarded the following problem sources and the problem persists:

- All my media are in local SSD´s so the access time is no problem.
- Srcolling in 3D List in Theater View the IGPU (Intel HD4600) load is below 40% with the default clock of 600MHz and CPU (4570T) load is below 40% @ 800MHz. It even doesn't need to increase the clocks, they are the same as iddle.
- The problem is present with the last JRiver19 build and with the previous ones.
- As well as with the latest Intel Graphic driver and older ones.
- I have tried all the Skins,
- Tools --> Options --> General --> Video Card --> Hardware accelerate graphics --> All the options. Exact the same behaviour except, of course, the quality of rendered cover images.
- Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> Frame Rate (tried 50Hz & 60Hz). Verified with the TV Info menu it is working in 1080p 50 & 60 Hz.
- Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> Use fullscreen exclusive mode for drawing. I need to start the task manager, without terminate any process, to exit the Theater View.
- Aero is Enabled.

I tried this on the other PC (Intel 2310M IGPU HD3000) and PC monitor instead of TV with similar results.

I will try any suggestion to find a fix.

Nuke, I'm sure we will find a solution.

S2

[nuke2000]

Hi Felix, looks like you have jumped through hoops the same as me. As earlier in this thread, the last version that seems significantly better (although not as smooth as all other versions on non intel igpu systems) is version 18.0.193. All subsequent versions have the problem to varying degrees (I have tried quite a few versions in an effort to isolate the problem). Perhaps 18.0.193 is a starting point for jriver to attempt to isolate and fix the issue.

I am no pc genius but I just feel jriver mc is not recognising or utilising the graphics capabilities of the intel igpu's.

I am sure jriver will do their best to isolate and fix the issue

[RoderickGI]

Okay, can we go back to basics. You said;

I am trailing jr mc19 and under theatre view the cover views are very jerky.

Exactly which Cover Views are jerky? As you can see from my signature I use an Intel Core i5-3570K CPU which includes a HD4000 iGPU. I'm using Red October Standard as I found RO HQ dropped frames in HD definition movies on this GPU.

I just checked all the movie cover views in Theatreview, and I do get a very small amount of jerkiness in the Name view, which is the 3D single line of movie covers. The jerkiness only occurs when moving one movie cover at a time, and is really just a little shudder as the cover moves to its final position. I use that view a lot and wouldn't have even noticed it except for this thread and going looking for it. Moving fast down the line of covers shows no jerkiness until positioning the last cover. None of the other Movie Views showed noticeable jerkiness.

I also checked the Audio Album cover views and again, there is a very slight shudder in some of the movements of covers, mostly as they are rotating to a stop, or just settling to their final position. The shudder is less than I saw in the movie covers.

So where are you seeing it exactly, how bad is it, and what are you doing when it happens?

I am no pc genius but I just feel jriver mc is not recognising or utilising the graphics capabilities of the intel igpu's.

It would be great if this was true, because when they fix it I might get even better visuals on my TV!  

[jmone]

In checking my HD4000 laptop I do the the motion that Roderick is talking about, a kind of Snap to final position.  I'm on the 10.18.10.3379 driver but I see a new one is being pushed from WHQL so I'll try that.

Edit - see the same thing on the 3412 drivers

[Hendrik]

Someone remind me, which view is cover flow exactly?
I can probably try tomorrow if I can reproduce a difference between Intel and NVIDIA - I do however run Windows 8.1, hope that doesn't make a difference for this.

On another note, the new presentation mode which was introduced in MC18 is not active when Full Screen exclusive mode is used, so I would've thought it may run better in general.

PS:
You can get some stats by pressing the "Pause" key, maybe it shows something worth noting? (ie. extremely low fps or something like that)

[MrC]

Someone remind me, which view is cover flow exactly?

It sure would be nice if there are "names" for these views that MC shows you the names of these views.

The order seems to be:

1. some list view with small thumbnails at the left
2. some list view with medium size thumnails at the right
3. a 3 x N grid of thumbnails
4. an apple-like cover view of album art
5. a dense grid of thumnails w/no captions
6. a more widely spaced grid of thumbnails with captions (like a Categories view).

It seems the problems are being reported on 3, 4 and 5.

[FelixM]

Exact. In my case the problem is present in the 3, 4 and 5 views of your list.

Yes, is this Snap to final position of the audio or movie cover images what is jerky. In my system is very evident and annoying. not slight.
For me is more evident for the Audio Album Covers, but it happens too with the Movie Covers.

It happens all the times I navigate through this views, not occasionally.


""You can get some stats by pressing the "Pause" key, maybe it shows something worth noting? (ie. extremely low fps or something like that)""
Sorry, I don't understand that. Pressing the pause key while navigating in the cover views only Start/Pauses the music and the problem is in both cases. Am I losing something?

Thanks for the help.

[RoderickGI]

He means the Pause key on the keyboard, not the multimedia pause/play button, or the MC software button.

Unfortunately I can't test this on my HTPC with the HD4000 iGPU as the Logitech keyboard I use with my HTPC doesn't have a Pause key.

However, using MC on my main PC, the Pause button brings up frame rate information. For example it shows I am getting between 60 and 74 fps on my monitor. This PC has an AMD HD5800 Graphics card, and there is no shudder on movie covers, but the image itself shows a bit of a jump as the cover image is resized and sharpened when it reaches the final position.

[Hendrik]

Do I understand it correctly, that this is about is the small hiccup when you switch to a new movie cover, and it draws the full resolution one instead of the thumbnail?

[nuke2000]

Hi there.

Much like Felix has reported, on my intel igpu systems it is far from a small hiccup. Movie covers, music covers and images all wobble significantly before coming into focus whilst scrolling through movies/images/music. It is not when redrawing the full res image after the movie/album has been selected. It is very distracting and basically makes the mc19 experience on my htpc rather disappointing  

As earlier in this thread, the issue is not present at all on either an 'inferior spec' amd igpu or indeed a lowly tablet with an atom processor

Do I understand it correctly, that this is about is the small hiccup when you switch to a new movie cover, and it draws the full resolution one instead of the thumbnail?

[MrC]

On my i7-3770K system, in list mode 3 (3 x N grid), holding down the mouse for a bit, and then letting go... as the skewed grid of thumbnails decelerates, there are one or more clear heavy glitches,  each one a sluggish shudder of the grid in the direction of the motion.  The shudder is probably a jump of about 25-50 pixels or so (hard to tell).  It does bring a sense of discordance and for me induces a very slight nausea (like the light/dark flickering when traveling down a tree-lined highway at sundown).

[Hendrik]

I may try a few things, but Matt is the one that really knows this thing. Not sure how long it would take me to fully understand how it works and where the problem exactly is, before I can even begin to think about a solution.
In short, I would love to fix it, but its not going to happen over night.

[MrC]

From my perspective, no biggie.

Something tangential.  At some point, it might be worth snapping to a halt instead of that slow drift implemented now, as the drift causes very clear (and awful looking) horizontal edge line repaints and vertical vibration.  It can approach 1 second per thumbnail.  Given that the monitor has a discreet number of lines, using an analog deceleration algorithm until it hits 0 doesn't really look good.

[RoderickGI]

I may try a few things, but Matt is the one that really knows this thing.

I've been dreading to see that written, and watching Matt's progress to recovery keenly. I'm sure that is an issue every day at JRiver. Enough said.

I like the flow covers, including the "smooth" slowing to a stop, and wouldn't want to lose it. As I said earlier, I wouldn't have noticed the jerkiness at all if it hadn't been pointed out. Obviously though it is a problem for some hardware types, and if fixing this improves iGPU performance overall, I'm all for a proper fix at some stage. After all, if something isn't right here, it probably isn't right elsewhere.

[nuke2000]

It's good to hear that the chaps at jriver have acknowledged the issue. I am sure you will get on top of it as soon as you are able. I will stick with mc18 for now and upgrade when a fix arrives. Just a quick question, will I get the opportunity to re trial when a 'fixed' version of mc19 is released or alternatively beta test?

Thanks again for the excellent support and best wishes to Matt.

[FelixM]

Hi all:

MrC:
What you have described better than me, is the problem I have.
For me it happens when scrolling with the keyboard or the remote arrows instead of the mouse, but is this effect.
And is worse in the view 4 (apple like).

Hendrik:
I understand it can be difficult to replicate the problem or find a fix.
More important than the glitches is the recovery of Matt.
Matt recupérate pronto (get well soon).

Thanks and greetings from Spain

[Chauncey]

Add me to the list.  I've had this problem from day 1.  My HTPC is 2012 Mac Mini running Windows 7 via Boot Camp.  It has Intel integrated graphics, HD4000, with the latest drivers.  I've tried every suggestion posted here without success.

[nuke2000]

I have checked back to see if we are any further forward with this issue. I can see no mention of a fix in any updates since I reported the issue and cannot test for myself as my 19 trial period has now expired. Although it s not my preferred front end, because of this issue I have been using xbmc as a front end on my new htpc. It's a shame as I have been a loyal and happy jrmc user since mc12. Any news guys?

Thanks

[Blaine78]

Is there a particular reason why you ask this question? (It is not easy to imagine how mouse/keyboard drivers might have an impact on the video output...)

I did have cover flow and scrolling album art stuttering with certain settings in setpoint.

[Hendrik]

I've been looking at this issue again, and I think I found the origin of the problem. However, fixing it will require quite a bit of refactoring in the D3D rendering.
It appears that the frames are not rendered according to the time when they are supposed to be presented (ie. one every 16ms at 60Hz), but instead with their rendering time, which causes motion to not be smooth.

I'll see what I can do to address this, I just wanted to post an update on the situation.
I'm on it, but it'll be a bit of a bigger endeavor - and hoping that actually is the real issue.

However, I'm still not 100% certain that I'm seeing what you are describing. Its really minor quirks, single frames going missing basically.

[FelixM]

Hi Hendrik:

I haven't said anything about this probrem since I realize the expert in this area is Matt.

It's great to see you may have find the problem source and you are working on it.

I have recorded a video (41 MB) to show you the cover scrolling problem.
What is the best way to send it to you, by email, or is correct to post here a dropbox link?

S2

[Hendrik]

Either throw it on dropbox or upload it to something like vimeo.

[FelixM]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ipwhzn644t65m/Scrolling1.MPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/titpvm4r1xub6k3/Scrolling2.MPG

Sorry for the quality of video, but I think it shows you the problem.
I don´t know if for nuke2000, Chauncey or MrC is exactly the same, but I suppose is similar.

If I can help in any other way, say it to me.

[Hendrik]

I made some changes for an upcoming build (19.0.135), and while it doesn't seem perfect yet, it feels a lot better to me.
Please give it a try once its out.

The issue you are seeing happens when it loads the full resolution cover to replace the thumbnail. For some reason that causes quite a peak in the GPU and disrupts the animation.
While my changes smooth out the peak, I hope I can also make loading of the image much more efficient to avoid it entirely.

[FelixM]

I´m impatient to test the new build.   

Thanks

[RoderickGI]

I've never seen anything like that bad on my setup. That would drive me nuts. I couldn't watch it for long.

Therefore, a great example. If the fix improves it on my HTPC, all the better.