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[jmone]

Getting old?

[SamuriHL]

Yup, birthday on Monday LOL

[jmone]

All of this is obviously a WIP and Hendrik has said that due to the high rate of change there is no Changelog as Such, here is a summary from what I've seen at this point of time on V103:
- It basically works!  Both for HDMV and BD-J menus.
- No support for UHD or 3D discs
- There are more issues with madVR than with EVR
- Main Issues include Stuttering, Black Screens, and Missing Menu Items
- If stuttering on madVR, reduce your GPU Queue from 8 to 4 or use D3D9 (not D3D11) Windowed Mode
- You will get less Black Screens and Missing Menu Items on EVR than madVR
- Seeking is patchy (missing Chapter + / -, and if you seek, it will mostly stall but sometimes work)
- Not all buttons work the same way on all discs

[jmone]

...also I was so used to having LAV Splitter I'd always assumed it would be part of the filter chain but, "Blu-ray Navigator" replaces LAV Splitter.  As a result you don't have exposed (and allowing the selection of) the streams/titles etc directly, you have to use the BD menu.

[SamuriHL]

Ohhh, ok that's very good to know.  Thanks for the heads up!

[jmone]

Any later updates to test?

[Hendrik]

You'll need to wait for the first builds of MC24 for further testing.

But here is a preliminary log of changes to get you all excited:
- Seeking should be fixed
- Subtitles "stuck" after seeking, or stopping to work after seeking, should be fixed
- BD-J discs have the MC OSD working (and are also no longer "stuck" in interactive mode)
- MC OSD has options for both menu options (disc & popup)
- Missing menu overlays should (hopefully) be fixed
- The MC OSD always takes keyboard precedence if its already open - ie. when using it to seek on a BD-J disc which then shows a popup to indicate seeking position
- MC ships LAV 0.71 to help with seamless title changes

Some Java discs still randomly are a bit buggy. Sometimes just restarting the disc works. Not sure whats up with those, this Java stuff is just super annoying to work with, probably I'll just have to observe it for a bit longer.

Next I'm looking into chapter information, and possibly also allowing audio and subtitle stream changes from the MC OSD (not sure if that'll work, we'll see)

[jmone]

Sounds great, that list will fix pretty much everything!

Is now also a good time to discuss how the Menu Option will work as an option in MC?  At the moment is is either On or Off. 
Personally, I'd like On/Off/Ask but also have the ability to:
1) Auto Fail over to normal MC OSD Menus.  MC should always play the disc even if it can not play the BD Menu (at present if you try to play a 4K disc you get the msg saying it is not supported and no way to then play the disc).
2) When "OFF" (eg playing using MC OSD Menus), still have the option to bring up the BD Menu from the MC OSD (Don't mind if playback has to start again).  Scenario here is using the MC OSD Menu mode as default to watch the movie but then you want to kick it into BD Menu to have a look at extras etc...

[mattkhan]

^
I would like the same, option 2 is the only use case I expect anyone in this house to use (I don't think my children even know that menus and all that faffing around before a film starts is even a thing, I guess I could use "force menu on for kids films" as a punishment strategy though )

[jmone]

Yeah - I suspect Option 2 would be the default for us but I plan to test the family on what they prefer as I've been wrong on this stuff many times before.  Who knows, maybe they like seeing the 10min of crap at the start of the video.

[RoderickGI]

Personally, I'd like On/Off/Ask but also have the ability to:
1) Auto Fail over to normal MC OSD Menus.  MC should always play the disc even if it can not play the BD Menu (at present if you try to play a 4K disc you get the msg saying it is not supported and no way to then play the disc).
2) When "OFF" (eg playing using MC OSD Menus), still have the option to bring up the BD Menu from the MC OSD (Don't mind if playback has to start again).  Scenario here is using the MC OSD Menu mode as default to watch the movie but then you want to kick it into BD Menu to have a look at extras etc...

These options would be ideal for me as well. They pretty much cover my use case for BD menus: Want them available. Don't always know when I want them, so want to be able to access them even when I have said No to the question. Don't want to be going back into settings to turn off or on BD menus for specific viewings.

I could actually live with the On/Off setting, which I would leave off, as long as I could access the BD menu after starting playback of a movie by title. But other users may prefer the question on each playing, and if menus are on, failover to playing the title would almost be a must. I don't want to see "I can't play that" when I sit down to watch a movie with someone.

Most other users of my system would just expect to see the BD menu, just like any other player.

[Hendrik]

Should "Ask" remember? Or just ask everytime?

[mattkhan]

I think it should ask every time if it is a system level option. I can see how a tag based override (which is what I think a remember option means) could be useful though.

[jmone]

Mmmmm - I think it should be the same as Resume Playback option, just a simple Yes/No/Ask or you could get trapped into always getting the BD Menu if you just once looked at some extras.... but it would be great to have an option to somehow tag or selectively remember (Playback Info?) if you want to default to a menu type (eg my BD TV Shows I'd always want a Menu as there are multiple eps on each disc).

For once I'm not sure what to suggest  that would work well at the TheaterView level for this....

[SamuriHL]

I like that.  yes/no/ask sounds reasonable.

[RoderickGI]

If set to Ask, ask every time.

Unless there is something in Playback Info that has set the answer for that particular disc. I guess the only way to save such a setting would be to remember it though. So how about like Subtitles. i.e. MC remembers what you answered the last time you played the BD, but if you change your mind and use the menus to do the opposite, then remembers the new answer, which would be Yes or No.

Once Yes, or No has been selected and remembered a user would have to clear that bit of the Playback Info tag.

Or introduce a field in the BD Info display that was actually a setting with a drop-down list; Yes/No/Ask. But that would be a radical departure from past standards.

Thinking more, if set to Ask, ask every time.

[Hendrik]

Re: fail-over to title playback, I think I would still like a notification to the user of some sort that he requested Menu Playback, but its not available. Specifically for cases like "You need to install Java", or something like that.

I could use a message box with a short self-close timer (say 5-10s) and resume afterwards, but people might find that too intrusive.

[jmone]

I like that MC would say that you need to install Java (or better still download and install it like with other plugins).... I was more interested if that if UHD BD Menus are not supported that it would just play as normal (unless you have worked out how to play UHD BD Menus that is)

[Hendrik]

Java is problematic, we'll have to have users install that manually for now.

[Awesome Donkey]

Java is problematic

Not to mention due to how popular a target Java is for vulnerabilities and malware, it adds an additional attack vector to the PC. I personally won't let Java or Flash for that matter (even though Flash is bundled in Windows for IE/Edge and I've disabled it as good as I can until MS actually removes it in a few years) touch my computers unless it's inside a virtual machine.

[Hendrik]

Unless you install a Java browser plugin, it really doesn't expose you to anything new directly. Its just some files that sit on your drive.

[rlebrette]

Not to mention due to how popular a target Java is for vulnerabilities and malware, it adds an additional attack vector to the PC. I personally won't let Java or Flash for that matter (even though Flash is bundled in Windows for IE/Edge and I've disabled it as good as I can until MS actually removes it in a few years) touch my computers unless it's inside a virtual machine.

I do Java for years for several big world companies, there is not more threats in Java than any other piece of software. As part of a browser it's indeed a potential risk, but as used as it's in BRD, you are safer than using JRiver itself.

The main problem is, as Hendrik said, the fact that we have to install it, and since the Oracle site is pretty cryptic, it's not obvious for users to choose the right package.

[mojave]

Java is problematic, we'll have to have users install that manually for now.

Room Equalization Wizard (REW) uses Java and offers the following downloads:

• Windows installer with JRE (30.5MB, includes private Java 8 runtime)
• Windows installer (15.1MB, requires separate Java 7 or 8 installation)

[Hendrik]

I have considered that, and will keep the possibility in mind to ship a private JRE. At least we know its a version that works then, which is a plus, but its also quite big.

[Hendrik]

Further changes so far:

- "Ask" mode is in
- Context Menu options in both Menu and Title mode to switch to the opposite
- OSD option in Title mode to switch to Menu - no opposite of this yet, since often you won't be able to open the OSD when you're in the menu, so that felt awkward.

Feedback on the wording of those options might be good.

I've been thinking about adding options in the Theater View roller to directly play in menu/title mode, not sure if people would find and use that?

[mattkhan]

I've been thinking about adding options in the Theater View roller to directly play in menu/title mode, not sure if people would find and use that?

this sounds potentially useful though perhaps would be used quite rarely

is there an MCWS call that will allow playing in one mode or the other? this would be useful I think

[Hendrik]

No way for MCWS to do that yet. Not sure how that would work. A special parameter just for one type of file feels iffy.

[jmone]

Can't wait to play some more!

[jmone]

Just did some quick random tests on my desktop (while it is building thumbs) and looks good.  Did see some oddness but I'll need to test properly but,
- Seeking works really well
- Menu selection works (OSD, Main, Popup)
- Ask works but I then did see on 4K the popup saying not supported if you select the BD Menus
- I did get MC hanging on one disc
- Items seems to be drawn correctly in madVR
- No need to install any nightlies etc

[mattkhan]

No way for MCWS to do that yet. Not sure how that would work. A special parameter just for one type of file feels iffy.

some of the MCWS calls do all sorts of things already so I'm not sure such an option makes it any iffier

File/GetInfo has an action option into which one could hide such an option otherwise just adding another parameter would probably do the job

[jmone]

Seriously good implementation!  I love how there is the blend of the MC OSD and the BD Menu, it works and works really well. 

Couple of notes:
- Fixed: Stuttering (you do get some as the madVR queues move back and foward when in interactive mode but it is only a couple of seconds and most)
- Fixed: Missing menu items
- Fixed: Navigation Stalls (it works really well and you can ffwd many but not all of the into clips).  I also like how you can use the MC right / left arrow and sometimes the BD Chapter menu pops up at the same time.  Very cool

Issues I found:
- Still get a black screen stall on some discs (Breaking Bad later season discs).  How do you want me to diagnose / test this one further?
- You can't get out of some of the Pop Up Menus (the ones without an exit option).  I "presume" you are meant to push a button like Back or Exit but these take you back to the MC GUI.  Ideally if in a BD Menu "Back" would close the menu.
- Need to auto fall back to Title Playback on UHD (unless support for this is coming soon).
- Chapter Skip ( |<< and >>|) still take to either to the start of the title or to the next title (not between chapters but I know you have said these are not currently exposed)

Where do I send the caseofbeer (warm of course!)

[JimH]

Where do I send the caseofbeer (warm of course!)

Don't mess with us.  We have the coordinates and a really big button.

[jmone]

I have a confession (that could get my passport revoked).... I don't like what we Aussies call beer (eg lager), it's just heartburn in a glass.  Don't mind the warm Ales the Poms make ... but a Pint of the stuff?!?!? 

[Hendrik]

- You can't get out of some of the Pop Up Menus (the ones without an exit option).  I "presume" you are meant to push a button like Back or Exit but these take you back to the MC GUI.  Ideally if in a BD Menu "Back" would close the menu.

There is no "back" button in the Blu-ray input definition. I imagine you're supposed to press the popup menu key again, which is not a key we actually have, so thats a bit of a problem.
The only keys it has is the arrow keys, enter, numeric 0-9 (which we don't use), the 4 color buttons (which we also don't pass to the menu), and the disc menu + popup menu keys - of which we only have one.

Unfortunately its also impossible to know what the menu is currently showing, so I can't "guess" and map "back" or something to the popup menu key while its open.

[jmone]

Interesting.... I'll see if I can map the PopUp Menu to a key and see what it does (or not).

[RoderickGI]

I'm with you Nathan. Horrible stuff that piss.

Give me a good red wine, or recently, and superb whisky especially if Japanese, anytime.


Hendrik, are you passing the popup key to the menu? Because if you are, those of us using Harmony remotes or similar may be able to map a button to that key. Not a global solution for all users, but adds the possibility.

[jmone]

For testing, I'm access the Pop Up Menu from the MC OSD as my Harmony only has a single "Menu" key.  Not all discs have a Pop Up Menu, Some only have a Pop Up Menu (eg the Menu key does not work), many discs have both.  The idea of the the Pop Up menus is to get access to streams etc while in the middle of playback and while some have an Exit option, some don't, so you get stuck with the Pop Up Menu being displayed.  All nice an consistent 

I'll see if I can map the Pop Up Menu to a Harmony Key

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, are you passing the popup key to the menu? Because if you are, those of us using Harmony remotes or similar may be able to map a button to that key. Not a global solution for all users, but adds the possibility.

There is no popup key that MC knows. I also don't think that MCE remotes for example have one to even map to (which is where the other Menu key comes from)
I can probably add a MCC command for it, then you can learn it in MCs remote control dialog. But its hardly an out-of-the-box solution.

[jmone]

Another Q - is it possible to know what Playlist is being used?

[Hendrik]

You can read the log, it probably says. 

[RoderickGI]

But its hardly an out-of-the-box solution.

No, but it adds the functionality to create a solution, and if it is documented many users will set it up, I'm sure. Harmony, FLIR, Girder, etc. could probably be configured to use it. So an MCC command would probably do the trick.

For example, I could probably add a Device in the Harmony setup for a Blu-ray player, and that would have a Popup button. There is possibly an issue in that MC doesn't seem able to learn all IR codes, so it may not learn the popup button code required. But I still have a few Extended MCE IR codes that I haven't used that MC can learn and could be assigned to a Harmony custom button.

[jmone]

Nothing I can see in the logs to say what MPLS is used ... No biggie it would make it handy to know what MPLS is what EPS on some discs as they are out of order.

What I did see in the logs was many thousands of these lines from when playback is stopped:
0037031: 4632: Playback: CBDNavDemux::ProcessEvent: End of title (0)

[Hendrik]

I should probably skip that event, it can be pretty noisy, for some reason it repeats on BD-J discs. Anyway you're looking for "ProcessEvent: Playlist (xxx)", the number there is the file - without the leading zeros. Of course Intros and Menus also have Playlists, so you still have to find the right one.

Next version will have a MCC command for the Popup Menu, and its also an entry in the remote control "learn" dialog. So you can either learn it there, or setup something like EventGhost to run like "MC24.exe /MCC 10065" if thats more convenient in your seutp.

PS:
Speaking about Hamonies, I'm so sad they don't make the original Harmony One anymore, or any proper replacement model. It had keys that felt good to use and an overall good handling. The odd rubber keys on the Harmony 665/650/350 are just not something I like. But my Harmony One broke
Currently using a 350 because its cheap, but it doesn't even have backlit keys which is really annoying me, so might replace it with a bigger model. Are there even any other vendors with programmable remotes of a decent quality anymore? Seems like everyone wants you to use your phone, which I hate even more.

[jmone]

Thanks that should work.  Just play through to the eps, then look up the log file from the bottom.   I'm not sure I've ever seen Fargo (TV) eps in the right order!

And Yup - the Harmony One was the best remote they ever made.  I'm now using Harmony Ultimates with the base but you have to wait till they are on special as they are so very expensive.  These are also too sensitive, my wife (or dog) will bump the screen and it fires off commands all the time.

[jmone]

...any suggestions on what to do this weekend re the discs that stall on the opening black screen to narrow it down?

[RoderickGI]

I was going to buy a Harmony One way back, but my Harmony 880 was still working fine, so I didn't. I should have. Or two. Or three.

I've fixed at least three buttons on my Harmony 880, putting in little spacers so that the contact point gets pressed a little harder. I've also re-soldered on the USB port twice, and the second time reinforced the mounting. Plus improved the contacts on the remote so that it always connects and charges on the base station without wiggling, which was a common complaint. I'm even still on the original rechargeable battery!

Get on it Hendrik, you can fix your old Harmony One if you still have it! Or maybe there are second-hand ones around that still work?


On the issue of alternatives, there aren't any that support the Activities Based use, as far as I know, and I really love that paradigm. I'm pretty sure the Harmony patented the approach, so now Logitech owns it. The current line does look pretty bad. I think you have the best choice now with the 350. The 650 doesn't seem to add much. I don't want a hub, or whole house control, particularly Logitech's. I just want a better IR or wireless remote when the 880 finally dies. 

There are still some Harmony Ultimate One remotes on sale in Australia, but from memory, they were not as good as the original Harmony One. No number buttons!

So sorry, no recommendations from me.   

[jmone]

Here is a log from a black screen freeze. 

[Hendrik]

There is some BD-J exception happening there, not sure I can really do anything about that. Might just be something incomplete/a bug in libbluray, or the disc is being extra weird.
I might have some luck with the disc at hand, but one should go into this with the eyes open that not necessarily 100% of all discs are always going to work.

[jmone]

Thanks - I understand.  Whats the best way of reporting back bugs / logs etc to the devs of the library to look at? .... or do we just bring it to your attention for now?

[JimH]

You could post in the thread that announces the build.  Or put a link there to any other discussion.

Go easy on us for a while.  Big bad bugs first.