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[Mans]

Great day Hendrik, MC team,

Switched to JRVR since it became available in MC28, impressive work !

Q: yesterday I've noticed two given DVD menu's aren't valid, meaning the navigation is missing and you can't select any displayed option.
Tried to restart the title, still no go.
Switched back to RO MadVR and the navigation works again.

Is this something known and JRVR related ? Or should I look further what may causing this ?
FYI I moved to MC29 a week ago.

Thanks for your feedback,

[Mans]

Great day all,

Concerning some DVD menu's which aren't valid (can't make a selection) when having JRVR selected.
Today I've found another title, this time it's a BR: Roger Water's Us+Them.
The main title can't be started, the screen stays black.

Switching over to MadVR and no problem.

Just want to let you know and in case i can be of help (test these titles) let me know.

Thanks.

[Hendrik]

Blu-ray Menus and DVD Menus work entirely differently, so there is likely no correlation.  At the very least we need to know what discs it happens on, but so far these are the first reports of such issues, so its hard to tell without seeing such a disc what might be wrong.

[DocCharky]

So, not sure where to post this but when watching the latest Spiderman I noticed a loooot of brightness shifting/pumping in dark scenes (try 34:40)  with default JRVR Settings. No such thing with default VLC or my madvr TM setup (an old 113b beta build with Neo XP settings). That might have something to do with Peak detection but I didn't want to test stuff in the middle of the movie with my wife 

[Mans]

Blu-ray Menus and DVD Menus work entirely differently, so there is likely no correlation.  At the very least we need to know what discs it happens on, but so far these are the first reports of such issues, so its hard to tell without seeing such a disc what might be wrong.

Many thanks Hendrik, indeed strange, here are the titles on which it seems a selection from the discmenu can't be made and so the movie can't be started with JRVR:

BR: "US+Them" by Roger Waters.
DVD: the kids title "Fan Boy Chum"

Both have a working menu when using MadVR.
In case i can provide or test something, let me know/pm.
I'm also surprises it's onto such a very limited amount of titles, as we own many hundreds of DVD and BR onto hd.
Could it be a focus or some interactive thing ? As the menu's do show up but no choices can be made when using JRVR ?

[Hendrik]

DVD: the kids title "Fan Boy Chum"

This appears to be a series, any more details, season etc?

[Mans]

Great day Hendrik,

This DVD has EAN: 5050582906059.
I've checked IMDb aswell but it's not listed.
I'm guessing typical for such TV series which appears in some regions on DVD aswell.
In case wanted i can provide you a link (pm).

The Roger Waters' seems me easier to identify: tt10121372

Thanks Hendrik.

[Hendrik]

I got the Blu-ray in, but its not working for me either in madVR or JRVR, seems to be an issue with the menu in general. I'll do some more investigation.

[Mans]

Hi Hendrik, thanks for testing.
In case usefull here are some of the things i see between both renderers:

-When using MadVR i can successfully start playing the title by choosing "Switch to title playback" from MC's OSD menu.
The "disc menu" option doesn't work indeed.

-When using JRVR i can't get any OSD to show up, neither to start the title in any way.

[Hendrik]

I see, thanks, yes that is one difference, if JRVR never received any image from the disc, even a black one, it wont be able to show the OSD, I'll work on that to resolve that limitation.

[petikoma]

Hi,

I also have similar DVD menu problem when using JRVR: the menu is shown but the selection point is not visible. However the menu works because if I press Enter the menu item where the bullet should be starts. Up and down arrows also work they move the invisible selection. The disc is from a series titled ER.

An other issue I encountered with JRVR DVD payblack is that the movie starts in wrong aspect ratio 4:3 instead of 16:9. Disc title is Feet of Flames (tt0208140).

Both DVDs work fine with madVR.

[Hendrik]

There are fixes in a future build for DVD menus which are mostly just a still frame, which weren't rendering the overlays properly

An other issue I encountered with JRVR DVD payblack is that the movie starts in wrong aspect ratio 4:3 instead of 16:9. Disc title is Feet of Flames (tt0208140).

I checked out that disc, and it pretty clearly with no chance of confusion indicates that it wants to show in 4:3 once the main movie starts. I don't know why madVR ignores that, but the disc sends quite clear instructions to that effect, despite actually having the menu in 16:9, so I don't consider that a bug right now. EVR also behaves the same way.

[petikoma]

Thx for checking. Overriding the aspect ratio to 16:9 solves the problem perfectly.

[DotJun]

Can JRVR tonemap hdr to hdr or only hdr to sdr?

[Hendrik]

Can JRVR tonemap hdr to hdr or only hdr to sdr?

This is not a feature currently exposed, although the tonemapping algorithms can do it, so we may offer it down the line.

[CZ Eddie]

Does JRiver think they might ever be able to get this (or MadVR) working with Netflix/Hulu/etc.?
I know it's not possible right now, but is it something that's on the drawing board at least?
Or is it a hard "not possible".

[Hendrik]

The DRM protection of those streaming services make that pretty much impossible.

[JimH]

Split Atmos

[petikoma]

Hi All,

I have the following JRVR issue when playing a blu-ray encoded with VC-1 codec: if the playback is started in full menu mode the number of dropped and repeated frames is increasing continously on the performance metrics OSD during the movie. Everything is fine when starting the same blu-ray in title playback mode. ROHQ (madVR) has no such problem and it works fine in both modes.

[Hendrik]

Please provide more details. Which disc is this on? Do you use refresh rate changing? Does it actually swap to the right refresh rate for the movie?

[petikoma]

Please provide more details. Which disc is this on? Do you use refresh rate changing? Does it actually swap to the right refresh rate for the movie?

Yes, I use refresh rate changing (set it up in Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings menu) and MC swaps to the right rate (23.976) as well as the rendering times are also OK.
I experience the problem with any BD encoded with VC1 but one example is the movie Matrix. I attach a screenshot after playing the BD for 1 minute.

[jmone]

Tested a few VC-1 and also saw the same thing.  OK in Title Playback but Bad in BD Menu mode.  Same behaviour both decoding vs bitstreaming.

[Hendrik]

Thanks, I see whats wrong. It's technically not an issue with JRVR but with Blu-ray playback, but it'll get fixed.

[jmone]

 

[petikoma]

Thank you! 

[bogdanbz]

I can confirm this as well, the Star Trek: The Original Series BluRays (which were encoded using VC-1, even the interlaced video extras) are dropping many frames, and are a stutter fest.

I also discovered another issue which happens only in BluRay playback mode, but not in Title playback mode: blinking subtitles on some BluRays (the subtitles show and hide themselves every half second or so). An example is the Drive My Car Japanese Bluray (which has English subtitles on it too, although it does not matter, the blinking happens with both Japanese and English subtitles). If it's difficult to source it, I'll try to make a sample.

[Mans]

Thanks Hendrik, Indeed solved within .27

Concerning some DVD menu's which aren't valid (can't make a selection) when having JRVR selected.
Today I've found another title, this time it's a BR: Roger Water's Us+Them.
The main title can't be started, the screen stays black.

[bogdanbz]

I'm sorry to say, the out-of-order frames on the DVD sample I posted is still present in build 27. It happens right when the opening sequence begins (the view of the ship Voyager passing in front of a star). And if I skip  backwards after the opening sequence begins to some frame from before (when they are still in the shuttle cabin), it happens again when that sequence ends and the opening sequence begins again (only the frames that can be seen this time are different than initially).

VC1 Bluray playback is fine in build 27 indeed, though. The one frame DVD menus (like the initial splash screen to select the language) too.

[Hendrik]

I'm sorry to say, the out-of-order frames on the DVD sample I posted is still present in build 27. It happens right when the opening sequence begins (the view of the ship Voyager passing in front of a star). And if I skip  backwards after the opening sequence begins to some frame from before (when they are still in the shuttle cabin), it happens again when that sequence ends and the opening sequence begins again (only the frames that can be seen this time are different than initially).

Looks like the D3D11 video processor somehow caches frames hidden to me, so now it'll get fully shutdown on seek or when switching to progressive, so no remnants can possibly remain.

[JimH]

Split Linux Driver Question

[audioriver]

Thanks for the excellent JRVR. I'm only missing madVR's "Smooth Motion".

[jkauff]

Are you switching refresh rates? If so, do you really need Smooth Motion?

[murray]

Ive been testing JRVR and it seems pretty stable and easy to use but I really miss my sharpness of running madvr NGU Very High. I also miss that there are no Image Inhancements on JRVR as I use very low settings on madvr as follows, sharpen edges, thin edges, enhance detail, these really help on a very large screen of 150".

Do you think JRVR might sometime get these enhancement, they day they do I will move off madvr.

[jmone]

FYI - there is a good review of scalers here - and "Fast Super-Resolution Convolutional Neural Network" (FSRCNN) (note: madVR NGU is not on the comparison list however).  The only issue I have is that as FSRNCC is very faithful to the source, it also sharpens the artifacts on lower quality material.  Hendrik is the authority on all of this, but as he said "Investigating artifact removal algorithms is sometime in the future".

[audioriver]

Are you switching refresh rates? If so, do you really need Smooth Motion?

Not much, and yes. With a 60Hz-only monitor and a 50/60Hz projector, Smooth Motion helps a lot. Yes, a hardware upgrade would be nice but until then SM will have to do.

[Hendrik]

I've split the questions regarding colors and HDR tonemapping to their own thread here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132758.0.html

In general, if you have a lengthy question and/or request help with setup or investigate an issue, a new thread is generally far better to contain your discussion and ensure nothing gets missed when other discussions pop up in the main thread.

[pepar]

jmone’s post a few above this has me wondering how scaling is handled in commercial theaters?

[jmone]

jmone’s post a few above this has me wondering how scaling is handled in commercial theaters?

I don't think they really scale content in digital theater like we think of it, as the DCP package with the video encoded as JPEG 2000 for each frame. 
Over 90% of the theatres in the world now screen from DCPs. If you’ve seen a movie in a cinema lately – it was likely from a Digital Cinema Print.

In summary:
- The entire pipeline from encoding to projection is tightly defined and controlled (so there are only a few combination of options)
- "Digital Theaters" will have a 2K or 4K projector (DLP)
- Content is these DCP packages deliver 2K or 4K JPEG 2000 based video that is fed to the DLP (which I assume is where any scaling, frame rate switching etc is done).

There is more info at https://www.isdcf.com/site/smpte-dcp-tests/ with sample footage that can be downloaded but they certainly don't play in MC (but media info will give you some details on the files, one MXF each for video, audio, and subs). 

Edit, reading some more.  The max bit rate for DCP is 250Mbs, and while a 2K or 4K Projector can take a 2K or 4K package a mismatch creates a drop in perceived image quality (do to the up or down scaling).  As a result, studios tend to create both a 2K and 4K version on the same package and the cinema will then plays the correct one that matches their projector. 

[AGHTPC]

I don't think they really scale content in digital theater like we think of it, as the DCP package with the video encoded as JPEG 2000 for each frame. 
Over 90% of the theatres in the world now screen from DCPs. If you’ve seen a movie in a cinema lately – it was likely from a Digital Cinema Print.

In summary:
- The entire pipeline from encoding to projection is tightly defined and controlled (so there are only a few combination of options)
- "Digital Theaters" will have a 2K or 4K projector (DLP)
- Content is these DCP packages deliver 2K or 4K JPEG 2000 based video that is fed to the DLP (which I assume is where any scaling, frame rate switching etc is done).

There is more info at https://www.isdcf.com/site/smpte-dcp-tests/ with sample footage that can be downloaded but they certainly don't play in MC (but media info will give you some details on the files, one MXF each for video, audio, and subs). 

Edit, reading some more.  The max bit rate for DCP is 250Mbs, and while a 2K or 4K Projector can take a 2K or 4K package a mismatch creates a drop in perceived image quality (do to the up or down scaling).  As a result, studios tend to create both a 2K and 4K version on the same package and the cinema will then plays the correct one that matches their projector.

Scaling is not allowed per the digital cinema initiative but there is talk this will change as videowalls slowly find their way into the commercial cinema industry.

Using a HTPC the JRVR Renderer is off to an excellent start. Looking at a really big image through a cinema projector it renders an image smoother and cleaner than Madvr. As the renderer matures please do not allow for filters that reduce image quality producing that digital look due to EE, haloes etc.
I have not read the entire thread, I am starting from the end working my way toward the beginning. Can the renderer be downloaded? As new features are added it would be nice to have the security to roll back to an earlier version. Keep up the good work.

[JimH]

Can the renderer be downloaded? As new features are added it would be nice to have the security to roll back to an earlier version.

It's part of MC.  You could always download an older build of MC from the forum threads.

[armyplace]

The new JRVR settings are working great.

I've got a scope screen and when using an anamorphic lens, i use horizontal zooming so use the maximum light output when the image is squeezed vertically.

This works great but the JRiver OSD is now outside of my visible screen. I have to change my aspect out of anamorphic mode to use the OSD.

Feature request: Is there a way to have the OSD float inside anamorphic section? I think this feature is available in Dsplayer etc...

thanks.

[tensionfire]

I try the new 3DLut option and I am impressed so far.
I noticed that the standard Gamut is rec1886 in JRiver, is this the best also for the 3DLut?

[Hendrik]

I chose that as the standard because it's the standard for creating .cube 3DLUTs with DisplayCal, but any choice should work, as long as both the 3DLUT generation and the JRVR setting are the same, since this is just the input to the 3DLUT. The output of the 3DLUT will of course correspond to your desired display gamma, matched to the calibration measurements.

[tensionfire]

I see.
The picture is great with the Lut, only in some darker moments faces are red oversaturated. Can anybody confirm this? It is only red and especially black faces like Samuel L Jackson in Captain Marvel (Timestamp 1h:04m)

[Z0001]

This will show a lack of understanding ... but anyway...

Does JRVR in Windows work outside MC? Eg would it help internet streaming? Curious if it means a light weight iGPU system could benefit in improved video quality outside of MC.

Thanks
Z

[JimH]

This will show a lack of understanding ... but anyway...

Does JRVR in Windows work outside MC? Eg would it help internet streaming? Curious if it means a light weight iGPU system could benefit in improved video quality outside of MC.

Thanks
Z

No.  It's not.

[tensionfire]

I see.
The picture is great with the Lut, only in some darker moments faces are red oversaturated. Can anybody confirm this? It is only red and especially black faces like Samuel L Jackson in Captain Marvel (Timestamp 1h:04m)

I solved the problem for me. If I use a LUT in BT.2020 format, the colors are oversaturated. If I use a DCI P3 LUT and tell JRiver that it is a BT.2020 LUT all is fine.

[raphaelv]

I wasn't completely sure where to post this, but I've noticed a small bug in the JRVR upscaling settings.
Whatever selection I make under Cubic (shaders) always reverts to bicubic150, it's effectively the only cubic shader selectable.
I found out because I wanted to try Mitchell-Netravelli, but wasn't able to.

[Hendrik]

I wasn't completely sure where to post this, but I've noticed a small bug in the JRVR upscaling settings.
Whatever selection I make under Cubic (shaders) always reverts to bicubic150, it's effectively the only cubic shader selectable.
I found out because I wanted to try Mitchell-Netravelli, but wasn't able to.

Thanks for reporting, that should be fixed in the next build.

[Inquisition]

Hmmm have an curious problem with JRVR GUI.

When i start an video and call the GUI it doesnt show, I had to stop the video short, replay it and then the GUI shows when called. This always happens after starting my PC, after the first stop of an video then the GUI always will be visible when i call it. Only when PC is fresh booted and i start first time a video, then the GUI will not be visible till i stop one short moment.