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[RobOK]

The MC11 Tag Info screen also showed read only tags as a different color (another nice feature) and showed grid lines.  I also prefered the "column" layout, where all the values were left justified against the same margin, as were the field names.  This made it MUCH easier to find the tag you were looking for.

I REALLY miss the MC11 tag info layout, and am still hoping that MC12 will bring back these features since they have a large, DIRECT effect on my workflow.  I still feel like the changes made to this window gave up "usability" in order to try to make it "look" simpler, which ended up having the OPPOSITE effect for users like myself (i.e. it made it harder to view and use since everything looks mixed together.)

I strongly agree with this.  I think the meandering labels and data fields make it hard to pick things out.

[dcwebman]

Found a couple more problems with the new tag editing that I don't recall seeing mentioned. I selected an entire CD's songs and some of them had dates and some didn't. I couldn't tell which field in the Tag window was the date field since I haven't memorized every location yet. I saw "varies" and took a chance that it was the date field and luckily guessed right. No label makes it difficult.

MC 11 let you be in a editing field and hit PgDn to go to the next song to edit. I haven't found a way to do that yet without grabbing the mouse, clicking on the next song, and then back again to the same editing field in the Tag window.

[lalittle]

Another issue I found is that some of the tags that were available with the MC11 Tag Info screen are no longer available in MC12.  For example, there is no longer any "Image" (i.e. Album Art) field, so it's no longer to quickly look and see if a song has album are embedded in the file, or saved as a seperate file on the drive.  If the album art IS stored seperately, there is no way of quickly telling WHERE it's stored.  Just because the Options has a path defined doesn't mean that this was the path used when the file was ripped.

UPDATE:  I found that if you use the AW to view the cover art, hovering over the image will show you where the cover art is.  This, however, is a far cry from MC11's method of showing a field in the tag info window that says "Inside file" or shows a path.

Larry

[lalittle]

Does the MC design team still want suggestions and discussion in this regard?  The Tag AW screen has been receiving only minor changes for a little while now, and I haven't seen any "official" response to the suggestions in this thread, so I'm not sure if these requests are just beating a dead horse at this point.

These issues are still VERY important to me since tagging is a main part of my MC usage.  If MC12 continues it's approach to the AW Tag screen layout, I'll consider continuing to use MC11.1 for my tagging work.  MC12 offers OTHER advantages, but it's AW Tag window has taken a big step backwards in my opinion.  Given my specific needs and preferences, MC11.1 really is "that much" better than MC12 in this regard.  I'm not trying to pick on MC12 -- I'm just pointing out that to ME, MC12 currently has too many limitations compared to MC11.1 when it comes to the AW Tag screen, which is one of my most used sections of MC.

If other people feel the way I do, please continue to post your opinions here.

Thanks,

Larry

[RobOK]

It would be helpful to hear from JR what they see as the top 4-6 things they are working on or want more feedback on.

[dcwebman]

Some changes were made to the AW in the 90 release so it looks like they're still working on it. But I agree that it's the area where I am in most of the time when using MC and it needs to be as usable as 11 if not better.

[glynor]

Does the MC design team still want suggestions and discussion in this regard?  The Tag AW screen has been receiving only minor changes for a little while now, and I haven't seen any "official" response to the suggestions in this thread, so I'm not sure if these requests are just beating a dead horse at this point.

Again.  Just to reiterate a third time, Larry and I are in complete agreement.  On my machine that has MC12 installed, I am still using MC11.1 to do basically all of my tagging.  It is still far to unweildy to use MC12 for it.

Powerful tagging and organization is the primary reason that I use MC.  Everything else, while important, is secondary to this.  I'm concerned because basically... Every single other new thing about MC12 I like (other than the fact that it is sometimes unstable, but it's beta so that's okay), but this change impacts my main use of the application negatively.  What am I to do?

I too, would like to hear some response from the J River folks on this.  Even a "too bad that's how were going to do it this time, folks" would be preferable to the current response (nothing at all).  It seems to me that enough of us beta testers all have serious concerns about it that little tweaks here and there to the new tag window aren't going to cut it.  What is the plan?

[EpF]

Powerful tagging and organization is the primary reason that I use MC.

Same here, and having read through this thread, I agree with the sentiment that the AW tag system has lost power and usability in favour of looking simple.

The thing is, the AW tagger is a powerful tool, and the tags for a file can be extensive. V11.1 did a great job of giving access to tags in a logical, ordered manner, making it easy to ignore stuff you didn't need, while allowing you to access everything if you wanted. And it was easy to change this quickly on the fly.

I find v12's system of picking fields from the huge, uncategorized list really unwieldy and inelegant. To then have to go back to that in order to remove fields again just grates every time! Using v11.1, I find myself constantly hopping between tag info sections for all types of media - both as a tagging tool and as an information tool. V12's system just does not compare.

[dcwebman]

I have started using MC 12 exclusively but had to go back to MC 11 yesterday to verify something because I was in the 11 forums and was going to answer a question. Wow, what a difference. I have to agree with most people that MC 11's tagging is so much easier. The only thing I like better in MC 12 is the little cover art in the tagging window but that could be accomplished easily enough with the MC 11 format by adding it to the top of the fields.

I applaud JRiver for trying to improve the program but in this case "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[lalittle]

Thanks for all the discussion on this topic, which is an important one since it effects one of the core uses of the program for many of us.  Since this thread has become rather long, I wanted to reiterate and add to something I said earlier, which I feel is an idea worth discussing further.

I feel that the tag info screen has become as much of (if not MORE so) a "personal" item as other aspects of the interface.  After all, the tag info screen is where many of us actually do the "work" in MC.  Therefore, maybe the answer is a way of personalizing the tag info screen in a similar manner to the way we can personalize the view schemes.  Maybe the tag info screen should have a configuration category in the "Options" menu, where we could:

1) Select the various display options we prefer (such as use of columns, different color for read-only, etc.)

2) Select which tags we do or don't want to see.

3) Select the order that the tags display (with a "default" choice of "alphabetical.")

4) Offer the ability to "link" the tag screen to individual view schemes, so that bringing up any given view scheme could change the Tag window display.  (MC11 accomplished this by offering a "Currently displayed" category in the Tag Info window, where all the items in the current View scheme would display at the TOP of the Tag Info window.)

This sort of configuration power is what we've come to love about MC.

Thanks again,

Larry

[glynor]

To reiterate another potential solution that I think would make all of us very happy (and would avoid having to add yet another set of Options to the Options dialog -- never a popular choice)...

Keep the "Tag" Action Window exactly as it now is in MC12 (with any improvements you see fit of course but generally the same style as it is).  However, add an "Advanced Tag Editor" button to it that brings up a separate, resizable dialog window (modeless please, so we can still interact with the rest of MC) that works exactly like MC11.1's Tag Editor Action Window.  Make sure to have this window be able to "Always Stay On Top" and remember it's window size and position.

This one small change (which BTW, should let you simply re-use the code from MC11) would take the current situation from MC12 from being much worse than it was in MC11.1 to being much, much better than it was in 11.1.  It alone would have been enough of a reason for me to upgrade to MC12.  The benefits would be:

1. Those who want to use the clean, simple "new" AW for Tagging can do so.  The rest of us get the benefit of a nice clean "info palatte" type display (which I do actually quite like for info purposes, even if I don't like to try to use it for tagging).

2. We (those who need it) can still access all of the quick, painless, and advanced tagging capabilities of MC11.1's system.  However, we get the added bonus of being able to do so in a separate, resizable window that isn't confined to the small Action Window sized pane.  (One of the reasons the new Tag window "feels" cleaner is that the style of the MC11.1 Tag Editor didn't "mesh" well with the restrictive sizing of the Action Window.)

3. You (JRiver) get the best of both worlds (happy users on both sides of the fence) with no additional options needed and with relatively little additional coding needed.

4. Those few multi-monitor freaks out there (like me) will love it.  I could put the Advanced Tag Editor on one screen and the main MC interface on the other.  Tagging heaven!

I should say.... Looking through the posts here, it is obvious that something needs to be done.  Among even the "expanded" Beta crew, I'd guess that at least 50% of us (if not more like 70%) strongly feel that the new system is less workable than the old.  That's not a good score from your power user core.  And frankly, with Interact as the primary support mechanism, it is us who spend a lot of time educating and training new users.  If you lose us, you lose a big battle...

Not saying that my idea is the only workable solution... Just saying that you need some solution, as this isn't seeming to cut it.

[modelmaker]

What Lalittle and Glynor said in their last 2 post expresses better than anything I could say on this issue. I must admit that I still revert back to MC 11 to do most of my tagging at this point.

I think what glynor said about an advanced tagging mode would be excellent.

[lalittle]

add an "Advanced Tag Editor" button to it that brings up a separate, resizable dialog window (modeless please, so we can still interact with the rest of MC) that works exactly like MC11.1's Tag Editor Action Window.  Make sure to have this window be able to "Always Stay On Top" and remember it's window size and position.

I think this would work best if it was a "toggle" and NOT a button that we'd have to press every time.  It would get tiresome to have to contantly be hitting an "advanced" button since, in my use, I'd ALWAYS want it in "advanced mode."  I'd much rather be able to PERMANENTLY set the AW Tag screen to "Advanced" mode.

That said, I'm not sure why it's "not popular" to add another set of options to the option dialogue -- I guess this is simply a subjective issue.  Personally, I like having a single place where I can go to change all my options, and would find an "AW Tag Window" options page a welcome addition that would simply make sense.  This would be the first place I'd look for such options if I wasn't familiar with the program.  As I mentioned above, I think the AW Tag screen "deserves" it's own section on the "Options" page since it clearly is something that people WANT to configure as they desire.  In my opinion, this is is precisely what the Options page is meant for, and it just makes sense to me to give it it's own Options set.

That said, anything that gave us the MC11 AW "Tag Info" features back again would be welcome.

Thanks again for all the feedback and discussion here,

Larry

[glynor]

I think this would work best if it was a "toggle" and NOT a button that we'd have to press every time.  It would get tiresome to have to contantly be hitting an "advanced" button since, in my use, I'd ALWAYS want it in "advanced mode."  I'd much rather be able to PERMANENTLY set the AW Tag screen to "Advanced" mode.

The way I envision it, it would sort of be a toggle... Since it would open a separate, resizable dialog window (distinct from the current Tag Action window which could actually stay open at the same time), you could just leave it open and do all your tagging.  What I mean by this is an actual separate window "floating above" the rest of MC's interface, similar to the "Add Folder" dialog, or the "Options" dialog.  Close it only when you're done to make it go away.

It would take one extra click to get into it (select a file or files, click "Tag" to open the Action Window, then hit "Advanced" to open the Advanced Tag Dialog).  I think that's a fair compromise though, as long as you could still interact with the rest of MC while the dialog was open.  So, for example:

You select a file (or files) and open the Advanced Tag Editor.  Keep it open.  Do the tagging on those files.  Still keep it open.  Select some different files.  Do your tagging.  Select some more.  Tag some more.  Oh, I'm all done?  Now, close the dialog.

So, it would take an extra click, but only one per Tag Editing "Session".  That's not a huge deal...

[glynor]

That said, I'm not sure why it's "not popular" to add another set of options to the option dialogue -- I guess this is simply a subjective issue.  Personally, I like having a single place where I can go to change all my options... [snip]

To clarify.... When I said "not popular", I meant not popular with JRiver (on the contrary, adding options is a quite popular request from us users).     I can understand where they are coming from.  Every time you add an option to the Options dialog it increases the complexity of that dialog, and makes it harder (a little at a time) to find the options that you want.  Frankly, I think it's amazing that MC does offer the breadth of options that it does, without becoming impossible to use (and a testament to their careful design).

In programmer's parlance, it's known as feeping creaturism.  IE: The tendancy to add options that let you do/use "everything including the kitchen sink" which eventually (at some very difficult to determine point) makes the application impossible to use...  Take a look at the set of options for FFDSHOW (or VLC with the "advanced" checkbox checked, or MS Word with all it's toolbars turned on) for an example of applications that have (debatably) gotten out of control.

It is certainly a matter of opinion.  Generally, power users (like most of us) would prefer more options rather than less.  We have the benefit of already intuitively understanding what is already there, including the inevitable quirks of the particular program.  For example: Why is the "double-click" behavior option found under "General" rather than "Playback"?  The skinning options are all configured under the view menu... well, except for Theater View, which is in the Options dialog.  Etc, etc, etc...   We all already know all of that stuff (without even thinking about it much), so when they add just one more little thing, it's easy to learn.  However, for a new user, each new "little thing" puts them further "in the hole"...

The problem is one of "overwhelming" new users.  People like my mom (or my boss) would open up VLC's options dialog (even with Advanced unchecked) and just freak out.  Too much to wade through.  Too much to remember (what did I check while I was in there that screwed it up?  how am I ever going to find it again to fix it?)....

The JRiver folks at some point decided to take a "hard line view" on adding new options.  The benefit had to clearly outweigh the "cost" of added complexity.  I think it's an admirable goal.  Maintaining the proper balance between "complexity" and "usefulness" is a delicate dance.  I don't always agree with the decisions, but at least I understand the reasoning.  Hopefully this helps others do so as well...

[glynor]

In conclusion.... 

That's why I think the separate Advanced Editor could be a better solution.  It wouldn't add any additional options, which could confuse a novice who might accidentally check the "Advanced Style Tag Editor" option and then never be able to figure out how to put it back to the way it was.  And (even better in my opinion) it would let us use both of the styles of tag editors (and let us resize the cramped MC11.1 style dialog to a much larger size if we want).

If you just need to go in to fix one track's name or genre, just do it right in the Tag AW.  If you're "rolling up your sleeves" for a few hours of intensive tagging though, you'd want to pull up the big guns...

I actually like the new style Tag window for viewing tag information.  It's "clean" and simple to read.  I just don't like it for changing information that's there...

[lalittle]

I understand your points, but I really think MC should stick with the current approach of keeping this sort of task in the AW rather than openning another window.  Another window might work well for people with multiple monitors, but for people with single monitors (especially those with smaller monitors) it will just crowd and confuse the interface.  The point of the AW is to simplify the interface and provide a SINGLE place for actions such as this -- it's the spot you go for for all the "actions" you want to take.  This approach has already been proven to work well in MC11 and 10, so I think it should be continued.

That said, if you're going to offer an "Advanced mode" button ANYWAY (as in your suggestion), why not just use it to toggle the existing Tag window, at which point the same button could now say "Simple" or "Basic" mode?  This way, we could still use the AW for tagging -- which is precisely the kind of "action" that the "Action" Window is for in the first place.

Thanks again for continuing the discussion and ideas,

Larry

[glynor]

I understand your points, but I really think MC should stick with the current approach of keeping this sort of task in the AW rather than openning another window.  Another window might work well for people with multiple monitors, but for people with single monitors (especially those with smaller monitors) it will just crowd and confuse the interface.

That is certainly the down side to my idea.  My thinking was that the "advanced" nature of the "Advanced Tag Editor" dialog would allow it to move away from the action window area.  Plus, you would still have full access to the regular Tag AW if you are very low on screen real estate (and you could always use the Advanced dialog on a particular set of preselected files and click "OK" to close it if you needed to access it's features without using it in the method I described earlier).  Also, keep in mind that you could still easily use windows' "Tile" feature (right click on task bar and choose Tile Horizontally or Tile Vertically) to make the two windows take up the whole of the available screen space.

What do other people think?  Is the "bigness" of having an Advanced dialog (separate from the AW) a good enough trade off to potentially impact those with limited screen real estate? 

And more importantly, what do the JRiver people think?  As both Larry and I said before... Are we barking up a blind-deaf tree?

[dcwebman]

In some regards in MC 11, some of the fields like Lyrics that were big fields would move off of the tag window. I see no reason why glynor's suggestion wouldn't then work for the entire editing process for an Advanced Tag Editor. Like a lot of tools, it would simply be a detached window.

[lalittle]

I guess I just don't see any real reason for the "seperate window" approach.  If an Advanced mode is going to be offered, I don't see any reason to not just put it in the normal AW -- i.e. I don't think that a "seperate window" approach would given any extra incentive to the MC designers to offer the extra features.  If they're going to offer it, it might as well be in the AW since this meshes with the overall MC design approach.  I think an "Advanced/Basic" button would suffice to keep the interface "simple," although I still think the most logical approach is to offer these settings in the Options.  You may be correct, however, about JR not wanting to add to the existing options.

I'm really curious what JRiver thinks about this as well.  It seems that there is sufficient interest in it to at least warrant consideration.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

I see no reason why glynor's suggestion wouldn't then work for the entire editing process for an Advanced Tag Editor. Like a lot of tools, it would simply be a detached window.

I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be.  We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things?  This is what the AW was made for, and why it works so well.  Why not just utilize the AW as it was designed, and put the "Advanced" mode in this space?

There seems to be an idea here that by making the Advanced Tag window "seperate," JR will be more likely to offer it, but I don't see why this would be the case when they already designed the AW to be used for this specific type of thing.  I think the thing to push for is the option to get what we had in MC11, which is a much more advanced tag editing screen USING the AW.

Thanks again for the discussion here, which will keep this request alive,

Larry

[dcwebman]

I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be.  We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things?

For one thing as I mentioned, in MC 11 big field items like Lyrics moved out of the tag window. In MC 12 they stay in the tag window and makes editing pretty much useless. Try easily editing some Lyrics with MC 12 now. Unless you resize the tree side where the tag window is, everything starts wrapping, not to mention we lost the Copy to Clipboard function. At least if there was a separate window with the advanced tagging, that would remember its sizing, you wouldn't have that problem.

[glynor]

I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be.  We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things?

I'd just like it better that way.  Because large fields often make it difficult to work within the confines of the Action Window.  For example, editing this "Album Name" from one of my live GD shows in the Action Window is very difficult (especially if you need to change what's already there rather than just replace it):

1972-08-27 - Old Renaissance Faire Grounds, Veneta OR (braverman dank source)

A much wider window would help.  Modifying long field entries is one of my constant irritations about MC11's Tag Editor, you spend more time fighting with selecting the proper text and getting your cursor where it needs to go than is necessary...

My suggestion wasn't only about replicating the functionality of MC11.  Putting it back to the way it was in MC11 would certainly be, for me, a better solution than the current situation (or doing what you suggest and adding an Option to enable/disable "Advanced Style Tag Edting" right in the AW).  We certainly agree on that!  I was just trying to come up with something that would enhance the functionality in MC12 over what we had in MC11.

A bigger, resizable, separately-floating Tag Editing window would be a Very Good Thing^TM as far as I'm concerned, and would make MC12 better than MC11 was.  Others may certainly disagree (though it looks like at least one person doesn't)...

[Deivit]

Back in the old times of MJ 8 and MC 9.0, before the Action Window was introduced, tagging already had a floating window... it was not that bad, i.m.o... you right-clicked the file(s) or pressed F2 (?) and a floating window for editing the tags appeared.

I agree with Glynor in the fact that the current "tag" action window is great for displaying the tags, much better than it was in MC 11.1, but something else is needed for editing. I like his idea of an "advanced mode" to combine the best of both worlds.

Just my 2 cents.

[lalittle]

My objection to the "floating" Tag editor would be that it would not be conducive to the way I personally work -- I'd have to be constantly moving it around to get to what was underneath it.  I personally prefer simply having the existing AW used for this, as it was in 11.  I understand that the floating window would obviously be preferable on a 2 monitor setup, but I'm not using a 2 monitor setup.  This is of course a subjective issue, and one's preference depends on the type of work one does.  I don't utilize lyrics, so this isn't an issue for me.  A floating window would therefore add complexity to a setup that already worked well in MC11.

In other words, a floating window, in MY work, would not be an "enhanced" solution over what MC11 had.  I'm the first one to say we need MUCH better tag editing capabilities than MC12 currently offers (this is something I've been pushing for from the beginning) but given the choice, I'd still prefer a fixed window that was ALWAYS visible in the MC layout without having to "activate" it every time I wanted to use it.  The problem with MC12, in my personal opinion, is not "where" it is, but rather the layout approach it uses and the lack of features if offers compared to MC11.

We all definitely agree, however, that current Tag editing capabilities in MC12 are not sufficient, that MC11 was vastly superior in this regard, and that SOMETHING therefore needs to be added or changed in MC12.

Once again, thanks for all the discussion on this topic,

Larry

[Alex B]

I have been relatively quiet on this issue, because I use mostly only the file format info in AW when I tag.

Since I started using MJ8 I have always edited tags in "spreadsheet style" in the Content Pane. I have a selection of files and all tags visible simultaneously. The column amount in my "tagging" details view has increased slowly. I think I have currently about 50 columns visible. I scroll the display back and forth all the time during tagging. I think that an ideal display for that would be about 5000 pixels wide.

Edit: I checked the column amount. It's 53.

[dcwebman]

Most programs that have "floating" windows also have the ability to dock them. So that could be the same with the way it currently works in tiny action window mode docked and having the ability to undock the advanced tagging editor to make it floating and more usable.

But unfortunately this seems like another of those topics where we all discuss how things should work and it falls on deaf ears. Would be nice to hear something like "yeah, we know it's a problem and we're looking into a solution" or "nope, that's the way it's going to stay."

[lalittle]

In programmer's parlance, it's known as feeping creaturism.  IE: The tendancy to add options that let you do/use "everything including the kitchen sink" which eventually (at some very difficult to determine point) makes the application impossible to use... 

I totally understand this, but the opposite can also be a problem -- i.e. the fear that you'll add "too much" to the options can prevent you from adding options that really SHOULD be included.  In the case of the Tag AW, were dealing with a very popular part of the MC layout that is something that different people use in different ways.  It's clearly something that people feel strongly about, and it's layout effects the "everyday" usage of MC.  It's also clear that there is no "one size fits all" approach that will please everybody -- on the contrary, many people are very disappointed with the new developements.  Doesn't this make it the perfect candidate for more configuration options?

It seems like the only reason it doesn't have an options page is because it got to the game a bit late, after the options page already had a lot of entries on it and there were already a lot of configuration settings available.

Larry

[glynor]

I totally understand this, but the opposite can also be a problem -- i.e. the fear that you'll add "too much" to the options can prevent you from adding options that really SHOULD be included ... Doesn't this make it the perfect candidate for more configuration options?

I agree.  And yes.

[dcwebman]

Wow, I finally got the tag window I needed!!







P.S. Don't freak out, it's a mock-up.

[glynor]

See now... That looks fantastical!   

(Thanks for the PS... I was beginning to freak out until I scrolled down.)

[EpF]

As I am now at the point where I have to purchase MC12 or continue on with 11.1, I'd have to say that this AW issue may end up being critical in my decision: The uncategorised sprawl of the tags in the AW is so frustrating compared to v11.1's system, which I really rely on, that I may not make the move, especially if the option to add or remove ALL fields is not included.

This may seem a bit extreme, and it kind-of is, which is why I say that it only might stop me from buying v12. The major advantage of v12 which really makes me want to upgrade is the faster response in viewschemes which rely heavily on advanced expressions, so that's the nub - if it wasn't for the AW issues, I'd upgrade tonight, though I'd really like some more time with the program to get into some of the image capabilities and other improvements to get a better feel for the new version.

[JimH]

We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward.  We respect that decision.

(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)

[glynor]

The uncategorised sprawl of the tags in the AW is so frustrating compared to v11.1's system, which I really rely on, that I may not make the move, especially if the option to add or remove ALL fields is not included.

Though I really love just about all the other changes in MC12 so far, I too feel exactly this way.

I'm still using MC12, but only on a "test" basis on one of my machines.  Unless something with this is improved (I get so hopeful with every new build) I too probably won't make the permanent jump to MC12.  (Which I hate, because all the other features are so much better...)

[glynor]

We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward.  We respect that decision.

(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)

Is this our answer to this?

I'm really curious what JRiver thinks about this as well.  It seems that there is sufficient interest in it to at least warrant consideration.

* glynor hopes not...

If so, could you be more clear?  Do we need to move-on, are you working on it, or are you just undecided on what to do?  Perhaps we could come up with better and more workable suggestions if we had some idea of what your boundaries and requirements are.  As it is, I feel like we're wishing and hoping and talking but no one is home...

[EpF]

We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward. 

Does this mean that J River is fully committed to keeping the existing AW tag system in place, with no refinements which could address the two issues I mentioned in my earlier post?

[lalittle]

Do we need to move-on, are you working on it, or are you just undecided on what to do?

The way I see it, it's never "set in stone."  No matter how JR feels at any given moment, there is ALWAYS the possibility that they'll decide to change it.  After all, the program is for the users who purchase the program, which means us.  If enough users want a Tag screen with more features -- a Tag screen more like the one in MC11 -- I think JR will consider changing it.  We just have to keep this subject alive, and hopefully enough people will respond in support of these ideas.

As I said in another thread, It seems like the design decisions surrounding the MC12 Tag window are being made by someone who feels fundamentally different about how it should be used compared to the MC11 approach to this window.  MC11's approach to the tag window was that is was a place to do WORK -- i.e. it's design approach centered on functionality.  MC11 created a place conducive to editing tags -- ALL tags -- that, depending on your approach to tagging, offered some clear advantages over using the main track window.  MC12's approach to the Tag window (so far) is very different.

MC12 seems to see the Tag window as a place to get a very quick, basic view of common tags.  One can of course edit the tags here, but the focus seems to be on keeping it small and "unobtrusive" rather than creating a robust "workspace" conducive to the job of tag editing.  You can add tags to it, but only in alphabetical order, and with no grid lines it becomes "busy" feeling.  It does not offer many of the features that MC11 did like a "Visible Columns" section, gridlines, different color for "read only," etc.  It's just not layed out in a way that lends itself to "working" in it, which is immediately apparent to anyone who used MC11's Tag window as a "work" environment.  I fully see the point in keeping it "clean" and "unintimidating," but not at the expense of usage, and there is no reason it couldn't offer BOTH approaches via configuration options (i.e. another page on the Options menu.)

Perhaps we could come up with better and more workable suggestions if we had some idea of what your boundaries and requirements are.  As it is, I feel like we're wishing and hoping and talking but no one is home...

They're definitely reading these threads (why wouldn't they?), but I'm not sure why they're electing to not be part of the discussion.  I too am VERY curious to hear their reaction to these requests is -- i.e. do they simply disagree with us, or are there design considerations we're not aware of, or are they simply busy with other stuff at the moment?  It seems odd that a program famous for being incredibly customizable and for offering features that you can't find in other programs would simply disregard such strong requests for more power in this particular area, especially when you consider that the last version already DID offer it.

Any reaction for JR on this would be very helpful.

Thanks -- and sorry for the long post,

Larry

[lalittle]

Wow, I finally got the tag window I needed!!







P.S. Don't freak out, it's a mock-up.

I'm not sure if any of those fields are read-only (I'd think the "format" row would be), but I'd like it if the mock-up showed a read-only field having the "darker gray" color all the way accross to indicate that it was not editable -- i.e. so that only "editable" fields in the value column use the lighter gray background.

Well... at least the mock-up will look good

Larry

[marko]

I fired up v11.1 yesterday for the first time in months.

In all the areas I visited, MC 12 was streets ahead already. All areas that is, except, the tag info window.

The speed was instantly noticeable, with 11.1 being so much slower practically everywhere, thumbnail image quality was dire in comparison to v12, the library browser menu changes? much better in v12...

That tag info window though....
Such a pivotal area, you know?, and after spending a lot of time trying to get my head around v12's tag window, v11.1's was like a breath of fresh air!!

I need, for example, to be able to reset the playcounts on some images, tag some music using the people tag, set the artist tag on my music videos......
My understanding is that these work-shy tags are being tracked down, and hopefully, the net is closing in on them.

There's things about v12's tag window I really like, such as the new tooltips for things like lyrics, and Bios, but, what's the point of them if they're gone by the time you've read two lines? Couldn't they be made to stay so long as the mouse is over them?

Am I the only one experiencing massive lag when I click on 'playlists' in the new tag window?
Which brings me to another downside of the 11.1 --> 12 changes... namely, the 'playlists' tree no longer remembers where you were last time, and now, always opens fully collapsed, which is a little cumbersome to say the least.

dcwebman, love that mock-up. very neat indeed

[dcwebman]

I'm not sure if any of those fields are read-only (I'd think the "format" row would be), but I'd like it if the mock-up showed a read-only field having the "darker gray" color all the way accross to indicate that it was not editable -- i.e. so that only "editable" fields in the value column use the lighter gray background.

I agree, just didn't want to put the effort (more than I already did) into trying to get that Format background a different color. There has been a lot of talk and I guess I was hoping maybe a picture is worth a thousand words as to what, at least I, would like to see.

I do like MC 12's ability to select the fields I want displayed because in MC 11 I would sometimes search through the different sections to finally find the one I wanted. And I really like the image in the window instead of having to go to another window to see what the image, if any, looks like. The popup checkbox selection for items like Styles is great. So there are some nice MC 12 improvements. The two version's best features just need to be combined now.

[RobOK]

We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward.  We respect that decision.

(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)

Could you at least explain your rationale around the design?  What are you thinking about that is making you change something that was working great?  Maybe that would help us understand where you are headed with this.

[Scarpad]

How do you guys handle tagging TV Series and Episodes ? I usually name the shows:

01. Episodename.avi

I would then like to group these by TV Series Name - Season - Episode Name

I'd like to have those available in the Panes area but cannot figure out how to get this to Stick.

[raym]

I'm confused... The option to "Show Tags In Current View" in the action window ssems to have a mind of it's own. It's certainly not showing me things like "Name" which is definately part of my current view scheme. I find I need to include this item seperately to show it.

What is the purpose of "Show Tags In Current View" ?

[lalittle]

I'm confused... The option to "Show Tags In Current View" in the action window ssems to have a mind of it's own. It's certainly not showing me things like "Name" which is definately part of my current view scheme. I find I need to include this item seperately to show it.

What is the purpose of "Show Tags In Current View" ?

The "Name" always shows at the top of the window which is why it doesn't show at the top of the list even though you have the "Current View" option selected.  The addition of "Name" in the "Also Show" list is to ALSO list this field in the main field list, which can be handy depending on your tagging preferences.

The purpose of the "Show Tags in Current View" is to display the tags from the current view scheme FIRST (i.e. at the top of the list) in the same order as these columns display in the View Scheme.  This is EXTREMELY useful since it allows you to have your "most used" tags at the top of the list rather than having to hunt for them in the body of the tag window.  When using "Show Tags in Current View," the "Also Show" tags will display in alphabetical order AFTER all the fields from the current view scheme.

The reason that the "Current View" options does not show "Name" at the top of the "list" is because it's already listed at the VERY top of the Tag Window.

Larry

[darichman]

I wrote this somewhere else, but figure it's relevant here.

I like the categories idea (from MC11) for tags. It would be really nice if we could make our own field categories, and have it so fields could belong to more than one category.

The tag AW could have the following options:
 - show all tags
 - show tags in current view
 - show tags with values
 - show tag categories

The last one could work similar to how MC11 handled tagging, with dropdowns for each category created.

So I could create a field category called "Classical" and when I want to tag classical music, all I have to do is click on the "Classical" category and all the relevant fields would display.

[raym]

The "Name" always shows at the top of the window which is why it doesn't show at the top of the list even though you have the "Current View" option selected.  The addition of "Name" in the "Also Show" list is to ALSO list this field in the main field list, which can be handy depending on your tagging preferences.

The purpose of the "Show Tags in Current View" is to display the tags from the current view scheme FIRST (i.e. at the top of the list) in the same order as these columns display in the View Scheme.  This is EXTREMELY useful since it allows you to have your "most used" tags at the top of the list rather than having to hunt for them in the body of the tag window.  When using "Show Tags in Current View," the "Also Show" tags will display in alphabetical order AFTER all the fields from the current view scheme.

The reason that the "Current View" options does not show "Name" at the top of the "list" is because it's already listed at the VERY top of the Tag Window.

Larry

Thanks. I get it now.